Note to Readers: This file contains the complete transcript of the World History Research Agenda Symposium, November 11 and 12, 2006, as recorded by court reporter Myriam Maracas. It includes the two separately numbered transcripts for November 11 (268 pages) and for November 12 (210 pages). The transcript has been partially edited to correct errors, especially in proper names (for instance, in citation of book titles and authors). 1 1 VOLUME: I PAGES: 1 to 268 2 EXHIBITS: None 3 4 THE WORLD HISTORY NETWORK 5 RESEARCH AGENDA SYMPOSIUM 6 7 RESEARCH IN WORLD HISTORY: CONNECTIONS & GLOBALIZATIONS 8 9 10 Boston, John Hancock Conference Center 11 40 Trinity Place 12 Boston, Massachusetts. 13 14 Saturday, November 11, 2006. 15 8:58 a.m. 16 17 (Myriam A. Maracas, Court Reporter) 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MR. McKEOWN: All right. Good morning. 3 Welcome to the conference for the Research 4 Agenda in World History. Can everybody hear me 5 okay? Yes. All right. This is, I think, for 6 many of us a, perhaps, different kind of 7 conference. I think the fact that we're here 8 and the idea of world history, we could all 9 agree that on the need for collaboration, 10 although I imagine that as historians, most of 11 us are actually quite rusty on the actual 12 process of collaboration; and I think even so, 13 as world historians living with a disapproval of 14 many of our colleagues, also tend to be better 15 individualistic by nature in any case so even 16 more rusty; and the ultimate goal of the 17 conference, a consensus statement on the 18 research project of world history, I would 19 imagine for all of us at the idea and process of 20 the consensus statement is, indeed, an 21 unfamiliar one, an unfamiliar at best, at least. 22 So I mean, for many of us, the general 23 mode in a conference is to call, give your 24 paper, show off how smart you are, show off all 3 1 of your new perspectives, of your new ideas, how 2 you're thinking about different ideas; and while 3 I hope that all of us continue to demonstrate 4 and show off how smart we are, perhaps the 5 second aspect can be modified a touch instead of 6 start looking for how some of our ideas and our 7 interests are, indeed, similar to the other ones 8 being presented; and if, indeed, there is 9 disagreement and debate, how could we set up 10 questions, issues, a research framework or some 11 kind of other framework that might help us reach 12 some kind of answer or formulation of the debate 13 so looking for modes of cooperation here. 14 On a practical level, this means that 15 everybody in the panels will be rigidly limited 16 to five minutes. I will make noises at about 20 17 or 30 seconds, which means end essentially now. 18 And I hope that while you are, in addition to 19 presenting your own ideas, you may want to also, 20 I would suggest, present your ideas in terms of 21 a dialogue, what the other presenters and in 22 what sense you see yourself interacting with the 23 other people on the stage. 24 And let me also point out to you, 4 1 introduce you to Myriam Maracas behind me. She 2 is our court reporter who will be transcribing 3 everything that we say, which means that she 4 wants us all to speak loudly and clearly, and 5 she will let us know if we're not speaking 6 loudly and clearly, which also means that when 7 you speak, please introduce yourself, where 8 you're from, and hopefully even stand up so 9 everybody can see and hear you. 10 And Parker said that there might be 11 microphones available. Indeed, if you have 12 laryngitis or your voice is quiet, please do not 13 hesitate to ask for a microphone. 14 And one last piece of evidence. As we 15 heard last night, Libby Robin, who's supposed to 16 be on this panel from the Australia National 17 University, will not be able to attend. So I 18 just want to remind you about Libby Robin's 19 paper. It's Libby Robin and Will Steffen were 20 co-authors of it and they were coming from 21 something that is already in place so that the 22 project for the International geosphere and 23 biosphere programs running out of Sweden which 24 biophysical scientists are getting together to 5 1 understand change in the earth's climate, and 2 they've developed this idea of the apropos 3 scene, which is the stage within which human 4 activity has begun to affect the biophysical 5 processes of the planet in a big way. And they 6 came and invited historians to participate in 7 this project because when you get into an 8 apropos scene, this means we must start 9 understanding the institutions and practices of 10 humans, and they would like humans to become or 11 those of us who study the history of humans, to 12 become part of this large project. 13 And I think that this sets up two 14 issues that I think in many ways frame this 15 whole first panel. The first one, I think, that 16 most of us on this panel do agree that some kind 17 of collaboration between the hard sciences and 18 historians is a desirable objective; and yet, I 19 think it is still very, very much an open 20 question on what terms such a collaboration 21 could possibly take place. And even, I think 22 it's still up in question what exactly is it 23 that we historians do in the first place, if, 24 indeed, we're going to collaborate and add 6 1 something to the collaboration. So to start 2 off, I think these are some of the broader 3 questions that come in this panel, but let us go 4 forward with our five-minute comments from each 5 of the participants. I'm just going to go down 6 the list as they are presented in the symposium 7 program here. So let's, please, begin with on 8 that side, Marnie Hughes-Warrington, who is from 9 Macquarie University and very much on the 10 historiography. 11 MS. MARNIE HUGHES-WARRINGTON: Thank 12 you very much. I'm first here this morning. My 13 dear queenie wrote this to her daughter in 1776. 14 "When one writes on the prodigies happenings of 15 the world, the eternal difficulty is to judge 16 where to contract most and where to amplify. 17 One should resemble Samuel Johnson, whom he sent 18 a long time ago -- Samuel Johnson said to write 19 a geographical dictionary and look it over. He 20 said he spent far too little time writing on 21 Athens. Our good doctor said, if I make so much 22 writing on Athens, what room will there be to 23 the Duke of Abington?" This quote from a letter 24 to the daughter in April of 1776 is actually 7 1 illustrative beyond its immediate context. The 2 world debate on the exclusiveness or 3 inclusiveness of world history continues and 4 rages around the globe today. The 19th Century 5 world histories of people like Piotsi, Mary 6 Atkin, Sara Joe, C. Hale, William Quinn, and 7 John Newbury are all but forgotten; and this is 8 not simply because as one reviewer said of 9 Piotsi's retrospection published in 1801. This 10 is a history cooked up as a novel reduced to 11 light reading for boarding school misses and 12 lounges (inaudible) place. 13 It is rather because of a common 14 expectation, an expectation expressed by 15 Osterhammel, Patrick O'Brien, Jerry Bentley, 16 (inaudible), Mottman(?) and Wuda Meta(?) that the 17 field of world history was and, perhaps, still 18 is a modern masculist enlightenment project, 19 which even when it tries not to, depermalizes(?) 20 those outside of the west. I call their views 21 an expectation for their understandings of base, 22 not upon historical research, but on rounding up 23 what Hobbes, Michaels, the usual suspects, and we 24 know who they are. Kant, Hegel, and Marx. We 8 1 tell a story about our field, a story which 2 rests on very little historical evidence. This 3 expected history is important because it feeds 4 both celebratory narratives of a field redeemed 5 through professionalization or as forever locked 6 within what Bentley calls the gravitational 7 field of enlightenment. It's a story that leads 8 us to doubt the past, the present, and the 9 future capacity of world history as an 10 international field. 11 World history, let us be clear, has 12 always been and is and will be an international 13 field. It's simply that we do not expect it to 14 be one. The way to move beyond this expectation 15 is to, like Mr. Piotis, amplify not on Athens or 16 in this case Hegel, Marx, and Kant, but on 17 Abington, which are the many, many world 18 historical writers which can to date have 19 eluded our surveys. It is an historical 20 endeavor which will take in by parallel 21 traditions the likes of China and Islam, of 22 course, but also variations, appropriations, and 23 a subservience of what we always call the 24 Western tradition, which has become too 9 1 monolithic a thing to be helpful for us. When I 2 opened the door to 19th Century world history, 3 as I did two years ago, I was hit on the head by 4 hundreds and hundreds of volumes and discovered 5 at that time, as Piotsi noted herself, that 6 doing the historiography of world history is a 7 (inaudible) task, one way beyond the capacity of 8 a single researcher, it is beyond the capacity 9 of anybody with one or two languages. 10 My statement this morning and my 11 statement in print, therefore, says with nearly 12 all of the others in this conference, an 13 expressed desire of collaboration, one that I 14 would like to make practical through suggesting 15 the idea of a historiography research cluster, 16 one that works together to seek funding 17 opportunities beyond the often national 18 boundaries of funding bodies, one that also 19 takes opportunities to encourage the existence 20 of who to tell Ph.D. arrangements. This 21 collaboration, I think, is important not just 22 because I'm a historiographer and I look to work 23 with other historiographers. I think it's 24 important because it gives the ability to recast 10 1 how we think about the field of world history. 2 It takes us away from being vexed about an overly 3 narrow cultural base and takes us to a new 4 future where we presume always international 5 engagement, where we presume variation and 6 differences in understanding of world history, 7 where we presume those differences are not just 8 national but supra(?) national, along the lines 9 of religion, of culture, of education, of 10 economic background. This shift in view, I 11 believe, not only makes us better historians and 12 historiographers. It makes us better able to 13 engage with pressing international problems at 14 present, because we presume that we are an 15 international field and that we have 16 international participants. When we have this 17 view of ourselves, we can more readily engage 18 with the most pressing problems; and I've 19 identified a number of them: Environmental, of 20 course, social, economic, and religious and 21 political, many of which, of course, are in the 22 statements scattered across this conference. 23 So what do I want? I want a practical 24 outcome of walking away from this conference 11 1 knowing, having more names and want to 2 collaborate internationally to try and expand 3 our understanding of what we are in this field. 4 Not presuming that we can come up with a single 5 definition, but understanding that we have a 6 rich historical tradition, one that we can be 7 proud of. 8 MR. McKEOWN: Thank you very much. 9 Perfect timing. Next we have David Christian, 10 who brings us another Australian accent, 11 although he's currently located in San Diego 12 State University and this period of historical 13 specialization is the one from the big bang into 14 the future. Thank you, David. 15 MR. DAVID CHRISTIAN: Thank you very 16 much, and thank you very much to the organizers 17 of this conference to bringing together such a 18 genuinely gathering of world historians. I want 19 to make -- the basic argument I want to make is 20 that I think it's extremely important that world 21 historians collaborate on the project of 22 constructing a unified history of humanity. The 23 proposal is very general, that we desperately 24 need to construct such a project collectively 12 1 together. We need to do it in a way that 2 balances the large narrative against the 3 specific, the personal, the private. This is 4 not a project for ignoring all of the 5 specificity of modern historical research at 6 all. And as Marnie has taught me and many of 7 us, this is actually what world history always 8 used to be until about a century ago, so this is 9 not something new. It's a return to a way of 10 thinking about world history but with modern 11 data. 12 Now, why do this? I'm going to offer 13 two sets of reasons. The first I'll refer as 14 intellectual reasons. The third is ethical 15 reasons for this. The first -- and this is what 16 I talked about in my written proposal -- human 17 history regarded as a coherent story covering at 18 least 250,000 years. We can quibble about that 19 date but that's not relevant here. It's much, 20 much more, in sum, of the past. That's one of 21 the reasons we need to grasp it. I say that 22 because world history has emergent properties. 23 There are qualities that emerge when 24 you look at it, at human history, as a whole 13 1 that cannot be seen when you look at specific 2 histories, and I've described some of them in my 3 written statement in talking about strange 4 parallels. There are convergences that cannot 5 be explained through diffusion. They, 6 therefore, must be telling us something about 7 the deeper nature of human history as a whole 8 and those are issues we can only tackle in 9 Alaska. So human history is much more than some 10 of the past and if we think we can construct it 11 by just putting together lots of small history, 12 it won't work. We can't do that. 13 Secondly, comparison. World 14 historians almost by definition are comparative 15 historians. My own feeling is that if you're 16 serious about comparison, you need as complete 17 and rich a database as possible. In the case of 18 human history, that means taking very seriously 19 the whole of human history and the absence that 20 I notice most of all is the absence of the 21 paleolithic. There is kind of -- we talk about 22 Eurocentrism a lot. There is modern centrism, 23 and I think that is something we need to 24 overcome. We need to understand that we have a 14 1 huge amount to learn from a better understanding 2 of paleolithic societies and understanding the 3 differences in similarities between our 4 societies and theirs. 5 Third, we can tell the story now in a 6 way that we couldn't have done even 50 years ago 7 and the reason is because when I'm increasingly 8 thinking of chronometric evolution, a whole 9 series of new techniques, most of which were 10 developed since the second World War that allows 11 for the first time in several thousand years to 12 tell an historical story about the past with 13 absolute dates. We've been captives of the 14 written record until the chronometric 15 revolution. That has transformed our 16 understanding of the past. We can now tell a 17 good story, a coherent one, so we can do it. 18 Now, these are the reasons why world 19 history is different, I think. This large 20 project is what makes world history different. 21 Secondly, ethical reasons. My strategy, as you 22 can see, is to talk fast to get through the five 23 minutes. Ethical reasons why this is crucial. 24 Imagine yourself in a post-apocalyptic world. I 15 1 just read -- (inaudible) -- McCarthy's 2 astonishing novel, "The Road." Then think what 3 were the historians doing. This is the 4 experience we had at the end of the first World 5 War. Were they telling the story that they need 6 to be told? That's a story about humanity as a 7 whole, tearing itself apart, becoming more and 8 more powerful and tearing itself apart, and the 9 answer will be no. We are in a position that we 10 can start telling that story and constructing 11 the unified human identity that we will need to 12 construct if we are not to tear ourselves apart 13 as a global species. That is why world history 14 matters profoundly at the moment. I'm sorry. 15 MR. McKEOWN: Thank you very much. 16 Next we have Silvia Pappe, who was born in 17 Switzerland and comes to us via the Universidad 18 Nacional Autonoma, Mexico, and she is interested in 19 methodologies, histographies, and theory of 20 doing history. Thank you very much. 21 MS. SILVIA PAPPE: Thank you very much. 22 I think that my form didn't get here on time so 23 I -- the main purpose of my participation is to 24 question certain options of significant world 16 1 history, considering the social and cultural 2 place of any historian, his or her such 3 activity, cultural memory, and 4 self-understanding accepted in all theoretical 5 discussions on time: discourse, narrative, 6 reception and histography, common differences. 7 I want to put two fields of research together in 8 the first one. Historical knowledge and 9 research are based on social experience, memory, 10 self-understanding, which allows us to point out 11 cultural and symbolic differences, historic and 12 social self as different from others. 13 On the other hand, we have a lot of 14 debate in theory which talks about continent of 15 the social of historians and after the death of 16 the great narrations, we have orientation of all 17 kinds of these courses. The modernity, which is 18 linked to modern history, has been subdivided in 19 multiple modalities and of continuity and 20 discontinuity. 21 As a result, we have diversification 22 and multiplication of all kinds of points of 23 mood, which today is not only a cultural right 24 but also an academic must. It is, however, 17 1 almost untouched. The concept of space seems to 2 be granted when it comes to its implications for 3 world history. In my opinion, there has not 4 been enough deliberation on these two challenges 5 related to spaces. In the first, we have the 6 lack of a point of view, both cultural and 7 scientific, which would allow you to observe or 8 see the spaces related to world history. When I 9 talk about the scientific points of view, I'm 10 conscious also of cultural points of view; but I 11 want to remember that when we talk about science 12 in a natural science way, we are talking about 13 non-historic points of view, symbolic with the 14 mathematical measuring. 15 Remember that when we are talking 16 about science, natural science, we just could -- 17 (inaudible) -- historical and cultural elements. 18 On the second hand, we have the risk 19 and weight of a so-called socialist(?) of world 20 historians whenever social stands in opposition 21 to others. Both questions left to a point where 22 an increasing number of cultural horizons which 23 determine our vision related to the past are no 24 longer experienced. The problem of space can no 18 1 longer be to problems linked to our objectives 2 of interest. It should also include process of 3 self-observations of historians when it comes to 4 understanding of his or her identity. In other 5 words, whatever seems to be relevant when it is 6 a social and cultural place of historians, we 7 have views to a problem not of space but of 8 substantivity(?) . Acknowledge, lack of one's 9 so-called scientific on the contrary, as crucial 10 for both recommendation and self-expression of 11 others. If there is no social place, literal or 12 symbolic, based on experience on a specific 13 cultural horizon or memory on self-identity and 14 consciousness from where to observe, 15 conceptualize, and organize whatever we create a 16 significant past for ourselves, as well as on 17 the historian societies. If this is happening, 18 then we have to ask at least three questions. 19 Can we speak of world history in the same way as 20 we traditionally speak of local, regional, and 21 natural histories? 22 Well, the questioning of the world 23 historians' place give back on any other history 24 to point that such activity and cultural points 19 1 of view are nothing but a rhetoric assumption of 2 doubts of these cultural places we claim. And 3 the third question, if historians place their 4 point of view participating in the process of 5 documentation and multiplication, be observed in 6 theoretical discussions, should we not think the 7 bounds, a new bound, and we think it between 8 space and subjectivity. Thank you very much. 9 MR. McKEOWN: Thank you very much. 10 Next we have Peter Gran from Temple University, 11 and I think he has a most entertaining biography 12 of all of us, so I think you're well to read it. 13 MR. PETER GRAN: Thank you very much, 14 Adam. As I said in the biography, I have no 15 experience writing biographies so I don't 16 encourage people who are looking for that. As a 17 holding of this conference, it implies world 18 history has an advantage re-inventing itself as 19 a new field having, therefore, a certain lack of 20 recognition as a research field and thus, being, 21 perhaps, in a position to try in a new 22 direction. My remarks are addressed 23 accordingly. I thought about various different 24 possibilities before I came up here in terms of 20 1 where this field might go. Some along the lines 2 of augmentation of what exists, some along the 3 lines of charting a new scientific agenda above 4 and beyond the nation's state and beyond where 5 we are today; and I have -- (inaudible) -- with 6 great many of the initiatives suggested in the 7 various papers, but I came to the conclusion 8 those are insufficient somehow to stand alone, 9 not being a road for new information and going 10 beyond the nation's state, that is training 11 students who, perhaps, don't feel so comfortable 12 in their own countries, perhaps not seen as a 13 totally positive outcome. 14 Where could one imagine, therefore, 15 that world history could fit in the American 16 research framework at this time? This is the 17 framework of these remarks. It's, perhaps, not 18 a very original observation that our society in 19 the world community as a whole is on the verge 20 of a tremendous crisis, political, economic, and 21 ecological; and we are certainly among the 22 causes of them. 23 It could also be observed that our 24 history departments are not set up with a 21 1 significant nature of these crises to address 2 them, crises being both societal, crisis of 3 different countries and groups around the world. 4 As matters now stand, world history is a field 5 which potentially gives research access to world 6 affairs but in practice, however, only the very 7 of these two generations in -- (inaudible). 8 Rather than preparing the next generation of 9 students for this eventuality could we radically 10 alter the direction of research in teaching to 11 address real world problems. 12 Could we introduce such an agenda 13 alongside the mandated facts that governments 14 want taught? This is not the game set. The 15 obvious point that there are, of course, 16 worthwhile possibilities in many other 17 trajectories that could be documented in this 18 conference but simply to say that what I'm 19 addressing speaks to the rather basic issues of 20 any profession, that of science, politics, 21 and -- (inaudible). 22 If, for example, we persist in 23 picturing the past as Millenia of cultures 24 connected by trade groups, how this has helped 22 1 our students who may be unemployed because of 2 outsourcing. Are we implying they should 3 migrate or agree to be unemployed? If so, why? 4 Are we implying that our colleagues, too, cling 5 to their national limits under these conditions 6 are altogether wrong? I don't think we can 7 present such a claim or at least present such a 8 claim without at the same time thinking first -- 9 (inaudible). To think this would be an 10 interesting challenge for us to undertake 11 simultaneously that we live in the nation's 12 state that we are striving about world history. 13 As late as 1981, you all would know 14 Stavrianos wrote, "Global Reach," and in that 15 book, he portrayed to the United States and 16 other countries in the west as having -- 17 (inaudible) -- future about a challenge of their 18 world but -- (inaudible). This is what I got 19 from the book. By 2005 on Frederic Cooper 20 (inaudible) -- of comparable stature published 21 "Colonialism in Question," the attorney(?) of the 22 book was begging people in post-colonial 23 discourse to consider some of the words they 24 used because they are so -- (inaudible) -- 23 1 today. He's one of our most intellectual 2 voices. One doesn't know if there is a vision 3 of the American future anymore or not, and this 4 would be something, I think, that would be 5 interesting. Is there a vision in countries 6 like the United States that do have a future? I 7 conclude these remarks by drawing attention that 8 there is possibly still ongoing threat on H 9 World on this exact subject. One would seem to 10 be asking for something more real world 11 oriented. 12 It began recently when a student, 13 whose name seems to be Cherry Wellinger, asked 14 about connection of world history at the public 15 forum and how connection could be brought about. 16 Rod McClassner(?) replied -- he mentioned Ernest 17 Maselesson(?) of the past. This Harvard historian 18 advised the Government. Then Dwayne Corpis of 19 Cornell replied, noting a special issue of 20 Radical History Review which became a book, 21 another world with possible essential movements. 22 (Inaudible). Does world history suit the aims 23 of western and corporate globalizers by -- 24 (inaudible) -- for new world but on continuing 24 1 fearless projects or does world history open a 2 space for opposition of resistance? This 3 suggests to me there may be a basis in the 4 profession for looking -- defining our research 5 trajectory somewhat in terms of these world 6 issues and in considering the possibility that 7 the function of the field would be, in part, at 8 least that of intellectual engaged to wider 9 social issues, capitalizing on the works of 10 connections that we're so easily so able to set 11 up. Thank you very much. 12 MR. McKEOWN: Thank you. Next we have 13 Boris Stremlin, who comes recently graduated 14 from the Department of Sociology at SUNY Binghamton, who 15 also is a research associate at the Fernard 16 Braudel Center by -- (inaudible). 17 MR. BORIS STREMLIN: I want to talk 18 about The Production of World History Outside 19 the West. And basically, I want to start out by 20 asking why we should be interested in it; and I 21 think it has already been mentioned several 22 times, that the kind of world history that most 23 people here subscribe to, the kind of world 24 history that's promoted by the World History 25 1 Association is essentially the pre-history of 2 globalization. This has been admitted by some 3 of the leading -- (inaudible) -- of the World 4 History Association on numerous occasions. 5 World history is the pre-history of these 6 networks connecting the streets of 7 civilizations, and I think even McNeill has 8 acknowledged that this kind of history 9 essentially represents an imperial US point of 10 view. 11 Now, I think in all fairness, we have 12 to note the fact that the World History 13 Association and the World History perspective is 14 very transdisciplinary and its membership is 15 incredibly transnational as compared to any 16 other professional, academic organization; but 17 nevertheless, it is not only dominated by 18 western scholars but it's dominated by western 19 institutions. In other words, there are a lot 20 of people from non-western countries who 21 participate in the activities of the World 22 History Association but the institutions where 23 they are employed, where they teach, tend to be 24 western institutions. So what we call in 26 1 Binghamton, the structures of knowledge tend to 2 be overwhelmingly located in western countries 3 and in the US in particular. 4 So the general story, which is usually 5 told by world historians about themselves, is 6 that once upon a time, we used to have these 7 grand narratives back in the 19th Century where 8 philosophy of history going back to Botaire and 9 even earlier and then sometime in the mid-20th 10 Century, we got -- (inaudible) -- perspective, 11 which essentially set a field up for us and 12 subsequently, only then we started doing real 13 world history or global history. 14 So the question I want to pose is, is 15 there a world history outside the west in light 16 of what has just been said? What makes world 17 history world history? Are kind of world 18 histories that are done outside of our -- 19 (inaudible) -- real world histories or are they 20 really just a reaction to the kind of global 21 histories which the WHA does? Is it just a 22 reaction or does it emerge from its own 23 epistemological contact, which isn't necessarily 24 simply a product of western US -- (inaudible) -- 27 1 of knowledge? So how do we find this kind of 2 history? And my suggestion is that we find it 3 by analyzing the networks of world historical 4 scholarships in the major regions, and I have a 5 short list here. This is entirely schematic and 6 I'm certainly prepared to break it down further 7 or to incorporate regions which are not on this 8 list, but I think it's a good starting point. 9 So what exactly are we going to be 10 analyzing if we study the product of world 11 history outside the west? The first thing to 12 look at, I think, is the volume of world 13 historical production. It has been 14 well-established that the volume of scholarly 15 production in the west, in Europe, and in the 16 countries of the -- (inaudible) -- started 17 growing exponentially around the year 1500 of 18 the common era; and as it grew, there was, to 19 some extent, disarticulation of native networks 20 of world historical production elsewhere in the 21 world. 22 However, I think beginning sometime in 23 the 20th Century, this trend began to be 24 reversed and the amount of production in other 28 1 areas began to increase, and I think we're 2 coming to the point where a lot of the world 3 history that is written will no longer be 4 written in western languages. So analyzing the 5 volume of world history produced another 6 language, I think, is something we should be 7 looking at. 8 Secondly, the low side of 9 institutional production of world history. Are 10 there other programs, other professional 11 networks, other universities around the world 12 where world history is being taught, or is it 13 more of a network and enterprise where people 14 are coming into the field as amateurs and sort 15 of putting together, you know, what we might 16 call grand narratives anew. 17 Also, I think it's important to look 18 at the relationship of world history to the 19 social sciences. In the west, world history was 20 kind of a poor relative for a very long time. 21 It wasn't something that you were allowed to 22 talk about in public, and it basically didn't 23 fit into the disciplinary structure where on the 24 one hand, we had what we call history or 29 1 historiography; and on the other hand, we had 2 the social sciences and it was only, of course, 3 in 1982 that the World History Association came 4 into being. Is this experience something that 5 was shared by other regions of the world? Was 6 world history eliminated so early that during 7 the 19th and the bulk of the 20th Centuries or 8 did it survive through a greater degree than it 9 did in the west? And relatedly, what is the 10 relationship between people who are 11 investigating world history in these regions now 12 and western scholarships? How much access do 13 most people doing world history in these areas 14 have to western scholarships, to western 15 institutions, lecture tours, grants, et cetera? 16 Lastly, what's the significance for 17 the World History Association? I think the 18 first thing that we have to note is reflect on 19 focus. Traditionally there have been a lot of 20 arguments about what world history really is and 21 I think that the place to begin to investigate 22 what world history is is what world historians 23 say rather than imposing definitions and then 24 getting into arguments about it. I think also 30 1 if we look at the production of world history 2 outside the west, we may shed new light on 3 intellectual history. We may establish new 4 watersheds and intellectual history, different 5 from the ones that we are used to. 6 In other words, different from the 7 sort of globalistic perspective where we say 8 that world history is really born in the 1970s 9 or the 1980s. Perhaps we'll see something 10 different. 11 Also, I think the possibility for 12 transdisciplinary collaboration, because what 13 I'm proposing is the use of social scientific 14 techniques to study world history networks 15 around the world, going back into the past. 16 And, of course, the possibility of transnational 17 collaboration, how much access do we have to 18 world historians working in other regions? 19 Certainly the world historians are part of the 20 WHA; but to some extent, they end up gravitating 21 towards the west because what they say interests 22 people in the west. Does what most world 23 historians say in these regions interest people 24 in the west? What sort of dialogue can be 31 1 established? And lastly, the collaborative 2 project that I proposed investigating the 3 production of world history in the different 4 regions of the world, what I'm looking at is, 5 perhaps, a project which encapsulates additive 6 monographs where people with expertise in 7 different regions of the world are looking at 8 the production of world history in Latin 9 America, in Africa, in South Asia and East Asia; 10 and for my own part, the former Soviet Union so 11 basically, I'm looking for people who may be 12 willing to undertake this kind of project with 13 me so we can put out an edited monograph of 14 which I think may be of interest for people in 15 the World History Association. So thank you. 16 MR. McKEOWN: Thank you very much. 17 Next we have Katja Naumann, who is a Ph.D. 18 candidate of the Leipzig University program on 19 transnationalization and regionalization from 20 the 18th Century to the present, co-authored 21 with Matthias Middell, who organized and created 22 the program. 23 MS. KATJA NAUMANN: Thank you very much 24 for that notation. Let me bring you to the 32 1 discussion of which actually our results from 2 research to the university and the European 3 network in the university, global history. 4 Matthias is now in Budapest trying to promote 5 broad history so he cannot be here at the same 6 time, but he asked me to tell you many readings 7 and wishes, successes, actually ending up with a 8 statement because it's very badly needed and so 9 in this regard, also thanks to the organizers 10 for bringing this meeting together. 11 Since a couple of people spoke 12 already, some arguments, which I don't want to 13 repeat, the two areas of research we suggest are 14 on the one hand, history of historiography. 15 That means intellectual traditions, but also the 16 institutions of writing about world history and 17 teaching world history; and the second is to put 18 on the historical examination of processes of 19 territorialization, two arguments for both 20 areas. A world history of history is not only 21 necessary for all of those points that were 22 mentioned, but it's also necessary as an 23 intellectual history of reality. Since 24 historiography is one expression of how people 33 1 can see what is happening around them, modern 2 global history tells us something about how 3 people perceived worldwide phenomenons and put 4 them into frameworks that make sense to them. 5 Secondly -- (inaudible) -- 6 international collaboration, that seems to be 7 our aim, needs to know about the institution, 8 different resources, and the traditions of world 9 history. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to make 10 useful of that for a common work together. 11 Process of territorialization actually describes 12 spaces and places with various social political 13 economical and cultural actions according to 14 different spacial frameworks. 15 So world history is also the history 16 of the interplay of these special frameworks and 17 we can tell world history in such a way and this 18 has the advantage that we actually also 19 understand a bit more about our conceptions and 20 our systems of ordering these histories. 21 And second, the advantage of this is 22 one of the things that were mentioned in a lot 23 of papers, that it seems to be a commonality. 24 It actually starts from the point we are right 34 1 now because a lot of regions in the world now 2 are struggling with this changing territorial 3 framework. So if we take these histories at the 4 starting point of understanding what's going on 5 in the world right now, we can also change it 6 back to the historical origins. 7 Let me end -- my five minutes are 8 probably gone already. Let me end with two 9 points about funding. And this is something I 10 would not necessarily agree with what Marnie 11 said. Funding agencies follow specific purposes 12 and they are most likely national ones or 13 regional ones. That means that we are away of 14 general aims of world history that can send 15 these natural familiar agencies we somehow have 16 to translate these aims into arguments and 17 strategies that make us actually able to write 18 these applications. So maybe we should keep 19 that in mind. 20 And the second point about funding, 21 German research and European funding foundations 22 are eagerly right now to support modern 23 international, also in areas in the humanities 24 of social sciences, so ideally we come up with 35 1 networks that Marnie suggested where scholars 2 from Europe and non-European countries work 3 together in specific topics and then also get 4 into the process of actually writing 5 applications. 6 MR. McKEOWN: Thank you very much. And 7 finally, we have Debin Ma, who comes to us 8 indirectly from Shanghai and via the University of 9 Japan to the London School of Economics where he 10 teaches now and he's an active participant in 11 the global economic history network. 12 MR. DEBIN MA: Thank you very much. 13 Thank you for inviting me. I felt it was a 14 great honor. I felt like myself being somewhat 15 fake. I was an economic historian and training 16 and focused, and so on, so this is really a good 17 opportunity for me to broaden my purpose. 18 I want to talk about mainly two 19 projects that I'm affiliated with, and I hope 20 that could also give some ideas for all of the 21 history agenda. One is partly inspired by the 22 great divergence debate publication of Ken Pomeranz. 23 There have been efforts by quantitative 24 historians to, in some sense, measure or to give 36 1 some kind of global comparison. We have a 2 project there, I think, headed by Peter Lindert, 3 University of California-Davis. This is 4 a project trying to put together prices and 5 wages, and so on. So we are hoping to create 6 data prices, wages, consumption, as well as 7 currency information. 8 One of the things we have already is 9 some working papers, but I think the file is not 10 there so I couldn't show you one of the papers, 11 but we are really hoping to put together on a 12 standardized comparable basis -- for example, we 13 have a data file list that Africa -- well, this 14 is in the third year and we applied for new 15 funding by the National Funding Foundation. So 16 the data will come more as it moves along. So 17 this is one sort of it to really try to see if 18 we can, I think, as one of the speakers 19 mentioned earlier, but the kind of global 20 comparison living standards, relatively rigorous 21 basis that people do today according to the 22 national comparison. 23 There are a lot of problems and so on 24 that need to be addressed. What some of the -- 37 1 (inaudible) -- have come out. For example, as a 2 way of testing the great divergence to the 18th 3 Century standards seem to be quite comparable to 4 the relatively background part of Europe, and so 5 on. 6 And with this particular project, we 7 are able to -- for example, I was able to work 8 with some colleagues in Bejing. We discovered 9 some in account books that have very detailed 10 merchant records of prices, particularly 11 interest rates, which is very interesting, to 12 give us some idea about how the financial market 13 operated in that sense. 14 Now, this is a relatively quantitative 15 part and in connection with this, and this is a 16 lot of -- you probably already know. Is the 17 global economic history network based at -- 18 well, started up from the Londen School of 19 Economics. There have been already ten 20 conferences for the past two years. Some 21 members -- Matt Pickman(?) is one of them and she 22 is also here as well. These ten conferences 23 have seen some cultural State institutions. 24 They are working papers. They are also on this 38 1 particular website. It has a big Chinese 2 character. It's not my idea but probably that 3 was before I joined. So we have these 4 different -- (inaudible). We have conferences 5 with working papers and there is a German -- and 6 I think what is, of course -- (inaudible). The 7 thing that will last beyond the conference is we 8 have a master's program in global history that's 9 been in its third year and we will see how that 10 goes. 11 Now, there are several things related 12 to that. We also did conferences focusing on 13 commodities, commodities around the world. I 14 think there was a very small mini conference on 15 the case. There is clearly -- (inaudible). And 16 this network, I think the funding has been over 17 so as a follow-up to that is we have done, for 18 example, some follow-up conferences in 19 association with the University of -- 20 (inaudible). We focused on comparing -- 21 (inaudible) -- around the world, trying to get 22 some ideas of how merchants organize around the 23 world so it's specifically focused on 24 organizations. 39 1 The next conference, which is 2 something I organized, is focusing on the legal 3 institution around the world, looking at how the 4 formal mechanism of enforcing contracts and how 5 they operate, and so on. So these are in some 6 sense what sort of my report of -- the whole 7 thing is too involving and certainly we're 8 looking forward to get feedback and see how we 9 fit in this world history. Thank you. 10 MR. McKEOWN: Thank you very much. 11 And maybe as a prelude to discussion and 12 reflections, just my own brief comments on what 13 I heard, is that in a sense, I'm hearing two 14 kinds of things. I'm not entirely sure that 15 they are compatible. One, we have at least two 16 presentations that very much already started 17 work on the data base, on scientific methods, 18 asking the historians to take part in this; or 19 another formulation is we have present concerns. 20 World historians should surely have something to 21 say about these present concerns. And yet, very 22 often we listen to the historians talking, what 23 the historians have to offer, are very 24 concerned, is this very kind of reflective 40 1 method. It's sort of, wait a minute. Don't 2 jump into this so quickly. Let's step back and 3 figure out what historical knowledge is in the 4 first place? How do we produce historical 5 knowledge? If we stand from a different or we 6 look at the history of world history writing, 7 perhaps we're going to see something very 8 different, which I think the potential 9 implication is that, perhaps, the data coming in 10 these data bases, are these present conceptions 11 will be at the extreme, as Marnie suggested, may 12 just be reproducing modern masculinist 13 enlightenment, Eurocentric kinds of histories, 14 and I'm very sympathetic both to the sorts of -- 15 (inaudible). 16 Let's be careful about what our 17 knowledge is and how our producing knowledge 18 kind of things; but I'll tell you, too, I love a 19 good database and a good chart and I realize 20 we've just got to begin a certain assumption. 21 If we're going to start putting anything 22 together at all and even my own work, I'm not 23 quite too sure how to reconcile both of these 24 impulses. So let me present that as I think one 41 1 of the, perhaps, tensions that we're starting 2 out with in the first hour here and open it up 3 to any other -- when you give a comment, please 4 stand up and identify yourselves for the 5 transcriber. Yes, please. 6 MR. LESLIE WITZ: Yes, I'm Leslie Witz. 7 I'm from the University of Western Cape, South 8 Africa. Just two very quick comments. One is 9 that you talked about quite extensively, we put 10 in a collaborative in the University of 11 Hannover, which was rejected primarily because 12 we were going to study German society, as well 13 as them studying them. We were going to study 14 them and so reversing this sort of was a 15 problem. I think for the funders, for the 16 national funders and the -- (inaudible) -- 17 Foundation. 18 The other thing to this about is the 19 issue of science. I think that's come up and 20 what is the scientific method and how do we as 21 historians interrogate that as not imperical? I 22 mean, David mentioned this archaeological thing. 23 How do we interrogate that as not empirical 24 evidence? How do we deal with that and think 42 1 about and -- (inaudible) -- scientific 2 assumptions as world historians? I think it's 3 absolutely crucial. 4 MR. McKEOWN: We'll go through a few 5 comments here and see if we have a response. 6 MR. WILLIAM Clarence-SMITH: I'm William Clarence-Smith 7 not from the London School of Economics, but from the School of 8 Oriental and African Studies in London. And I'm 9 also chief editor of the Journal of Global 10 History for which there are some copies people 11 can look at them. 12 It seems to me from what I've heard 13 this morning, there are two things that struck 14 me. We want to reach out beyond the recent world 15 and through the natural sciences to paleolithic 16 that David Christian said. 17 I would say one thing. I've done work 18 on history with natural scientists and have 19 enormous cultural problems involved with science 20 so anybody who wants to rush into this and must 21 remember that one of the things we need to do is 22 in a sense iron out these problems. 23 The second thing which struck me very 24 strongly was Boris Stremlin's argument about 43 1 world history being done outside of the west of 2 which we know nothing. Now, I was brought up in 3 Africa. My wife is Asian. I've had a fair 4 amount to do with African and Asia and even 5 Latin American universities. What strikes me is 6 that there are some traditions which are very 7 strong, very dominant. National history, 8 Marxist history, which virtually disappeared in 9 the west, and religious history. And most 10 recently, Islam, and there are undoubtedly 11 indigenous historians of Islam who have 12 continued to work almost without reference to 13 the western tradition and for whom this is a 14 history, the submission of man to God and much 15 of that submission goes through extending the 16 land which is under the rule of the aria. 17 So in a sense, this can be extremely 18 aggressive and imperial and kind of history. So 19 I'm not saying we shouldn't reach out to these 20 people. What I'm saying is, let's not 21 overidealize the kinds of world history which 22 are being produced outside the west. Thank you. 23 MR. McKEOWN: Over here, Jack Wills. 24 MR. JACK WILLS: Jack Wills, University 44 1 of Southern California. Again, on Boris 2 Stremlin's plea, I was wondering if one way to 3 start with some of us would be to just put out a 4 call and each world for people who know about 5 networks and interactions centered outside 6 Europe, Western Europe, and North America and 7 get some preliminary statements and just some 8 identifications of where stuff is. I don't 9 think we should be too fussy when we do that. I 10 think that if it turns out that the language of 11 that interaction is a European language, fine. 12 One just stumbled along the graces of some form 13 of what looks like a very lively franco form 14 network involving scholars in France, in 15 Indonesia, Algeria, and Morocco. 16 I think there is still a Francophone 17 network and somebody can tell us around what 18 used to be IFAN and now has a more -- and which 19 I'm sure now has a less old-fashioned name. I 20 was involved last year with a network of young 21 scholars at Leiden from all around the Indian 22 Ocean all the way from Cape Town to Kyoto, 23 working with Dutch documents but doing their own 24 history and talking to each other, which was 45 1 phenomenal. Tony Reid's Asian -- (inaudible) -- 2 at Singapore is basically Anglo but Tony is 3 very, very much committed to making Asian 4 scholars the center of that. There are 5 promising beginnings in Keoto and Osaka that are 6 involved with people in China where even the 7 Chinese and Japanese languages are becoming 8 primary. So here's a whole range of stuff 9 that -- and I don't know a thing about Oxon(?), 10 Boris, but it would be fascinating to find out, 11 to hear, but inquiry network involving the 12 Kazakhs and the -- (inaudible) -- all of the 13 rest of them out there who I would assume as 14 much of the dialogue is going on in Russian and 15 so what? Do a first sweep across this stuff and 16 I will bet you that at the second or third 17 removed, that the current audience of H-World 18 would pick up quite a bunch of it. Thank you. 19 MR. McKEOWN: You're next. 20 MS. ANNETTE HANSEN: I'm Annette 21 Hansen, and I just wanted to address those 22 issues that Leslie Witz just brought up in terms 23 of funding and which was also brought up by 24 other people here; and I think that it's a real 46 1 challenge because I also see it very much as, 2 they are regionally bound, the funding 3 opportunities, and certainly my experience in 4 Europe when I returned from the States, and I 5 proposed -- well, I had proposal where I was 6 collaborating with colleagues in Japan and the 7 US, they were not interested because what they 8 were interested in was globalizations from a 9 European perspective; and so I think it will be 10 interesting in a forum like this because I 11 welcome this very much. We are speaking across 12 regions to try and find ways in which we can 13 circumvent that at least in the European 14 context. 15 MR. McKEOWN: Let me ask first, if 16 anybody would like to respond or comment in the 17 panel? Peter? 18 MR. PETER GRAN: The scene that came 19 this morning in this panel, which was in several 20 of the interventions which we just heard, had to 21 do with whether or not we are striving to create 22 an alternative and a narrative to what we 23 currently have, which would unify a wide group 24 of people in the kind of common enterprise or 47 1 whether we are striving to simply represent and 2 incorporate and include or at least acknowledge 3 a wider group so that the final outcome would be 4 one of complex diversity. I think this is the 5 traditional conflict between Marxism and 6 liberalism reappearing in a sort of contemporary 7 form. I think liberalism does for kind of a 8 pluralist approach and I think Marxism strives 9 to characterize what is power, along with the 10 idea for this power because what is resistance 11 to power structures. And I think that the 12 choices have already, to some extent, made by 13 sort of a layout of papers and comments that 14 I've heard so it's not really a debate here but 15 if it were stacked the other way, in other 16 words, if there was discussion of power, 17 resistance to power, we would have many 18 Palestinians here, many Iraqis, many Syrians 19 from each -- (inaudible), and so on, and the 20 issue of whether or not there was an interest in 21 world history would be a subject matter, would 22 be taken for granted and the presumption would 23 be that people would do a great deal and 24 probably could talk us under the table. So what 48 1 I think is, in effect, we've already made up our 2 minds about one thing. In other words, the 3 terms of the direction we're going, which is the 4 pluralization. That's where we are and I think 5 that we could do a good deal of conclusion 6 without necessarily collapsing into dialogue, 7 which somebody pointed out could have its 8 downsides. Maybe if you have been to the 9 dialogue center, you would know what I'm saying. 10 MR. DAVID CHRISTIAN: I'm David 11 Christian. Can I just pick up the issue of the 12 close relationship with the sciences? I agree 13 completely that the challenges are huge, but I 14 would say that the question is so important that 15 we faced and, in fact, I think both of these 16 discussions about how one moves from a -- the 17 focus of a particular discipline, a broader 18 perspective in relationship on the one hand to 19 the sciences; and secondly, how one moves from a 20 world history based in a particular region to a 21 broader global world history. Both of those 22 issues actually bring up the same deeper issue. 23 We know that the challenge is really important. 24 Something like this has to be done. The same 49 1 challenge as globalization. It's going to 2 create friction and the more urgent we try to do 3 this, the more friction we're going to create. 4 I mean, I've seen this in relation with the 5 sciences. We've had good discussion about the 6 sort of frictions that would be created if we 7 pursue the sort of agenda Boris proposes, but 8 that's not a reason for not doing it. It 9 absolutely has to be done. And ultimately, I 10 feel that the history discipline has been so 11 concerned with getting the details right and so 12 nervous about getting the generalities wrong, 13 that it's lost something that I think most 14 scientists understand very, very well, which is 15 the -- (inaudible). 16 It's extremely difficult and it 17 actually gets the grand generalities and gets 18 the details and the two say something to each 19 other. So this is my pitch for getting a more 20 global perspective and a more global story, one 21 that involves the sciences. It's partly because 22 I think the history profession as a whole has 23 been so good with detailing and so nervous about 24 the big picture, that there is an imbalance 50 1 there and it's profoundly important for world 2 history. 3 MR. BORIS STREMLIN: Just to follow up 4 on that, follow up on Adam's synthetic comments, 5 I think it's true that some of us do seem like 6 they are pulled in the direction of producing 7 this more totalizing, more generalizing 8 perspectives and putting together these data 9 bases of knowledge, whereas others of us are 10 asking, what's our standpoint? How do we 11 produce world historical knowledge? I think 12 that's absolutely true and I think it depicts 13 the fact that world history, as this new 14 transdisciplinary in the field of knowledge is 15 still caught up in this traditional two cultures 16 divided between the sciences and the humanities 17 and I think what Adam said is a perfect 18 representation of the fact that we are still 19 caught up in this technique and one of the 20 reasons why I'm interested in investigating the 21 production of world history outside the west is 22 precisely to see if people who produce world 23 historical knowledge in other parts of the world 24 are caught up in this critique to the same 51 1 extent we are. Just to respond to the issue 2 that was raised about romanticizing these sorts 3 of what we see as nationalists, Marxists, and 4 religious forms of knowledge, I agree that we 5 shouldn't romanticize them. I mean, in fact, 6 what's going on is that a lot of them are coming 7 back and turning this whole debate about 8 globalization against us; and basically, what 9 they are saying with the sub-studies people in 10 India, they are saying what the Asians in Russia 11 are saying and what many of the Islamic 12 fundamentalists are saying, yes, indeed, there 13 was globalization, but we invented it, not you, 14 and we invented it long ago. 15 So I agree that they shouldn't be 16 romanticized, but I think we have to remember 17 that following up on what Silvia Pappe said, 18 that world historical knowledge is essentially 19 produced from a position of power. I think 20 that's the social standpoint of world history 21 and of world historical production. But I do 22 think that we have to enter into the dialogue 23 with them because the fact of the matter is that 24 the volume of knowledge which they produce is 52 1 going to go up. So sooner or later, we are 2 going to be confronted with a situation with 3 what they say matters worldwide. We're going to 4 have to come to terms with it somehow so we 5 shouldn't be romanticizing them, but we should 6 be talking to them. 7 MR. McKEOWN: Okay. The woman in blue, 8 please. Identify yourself, please. 9 MR. HANS NOLTE: My name is Hans Nolte 10 and I'm from Hannover. I think I'm talking 11 loud. I've been talking to many audiences all 12 the time. I want to extend on what Boris 13 Stremlin said. He was a guest from the Spanish 14 language, e-mail community, historian last year 15 and in San Diego. And I think 1,000 members of 16 it in all over Spanish language countries of the 17 world; and by the way, we are publishing three 18 lectures from that conference in German 19 translation. 20 By the way, one of the articles and 21 lectures was about against globalization as that 22 is called. Thank you. 23 MR. McKEOWN: The one in blue. 24 MS. ANNE CHAO: My name is Anne Chao 53 1 from Rice University. My question is based on 2 what you wrote in the abstract. What you didn't 3 touch on this morning is the question of whether 4 or not we should have a unified theory of world 5 history. And I'm just wondering what the 6 audience thought of this? Is it possible to 7 have theory? Is it necessary? And another 8 small point is your interest in creating some 9 happiness quotient in world history. I would 10 like to know about that as well. 11 MR. DAVID CHRISTIAN: David Christian. 12 The best way, I think, in responding to the 13 question about unified history of humanity, I 14 share the nervousness, I think it's universal 15 amongst historians, about oppressive totalizing 16 narratives, but the truth is it's all 17 narratives. It can be oppressive, too. So it's 18 just not the fact that it makes them oppressive 19 and there are situations in which we cannot just 20 completely avoid the large narrative and I think 21 this is one where -- in a world, to put it 22 bluntly, in a world of nuclear weapons and I 23 only recently discovered that the US'S 2000 24 nuclear weapons are still on alert. In other 54 1 words, 15 minutes to launch them. We're in the 2 same situation we were in during the Cuban 3 missile crisis. We got so used to it, we don't 4 notice it. In a world like that, tribal 5 narratives or national narratives are just 6 getting very, very dangerous. So I think the 7 analogy I see is with the analogy of the great 8 national histories. This is astonishing, 9 rhetorical. And it's dominated in modern 10 mystery profession. There is a saying, if 11 you're a citizen of the US, you hear some kind 12 of essence, despite your background, your family 13 background, and all other citizens, and so on. 14 So my argument is, as the world gets 15 more interdependent, as there are more and more 16 problems that can only be solved through global 17 cooperation, it's more and more vital that we 18 start constructing the identity of human beings 19 and there have been similar projects -- 20 (inaudible). The identities of a national 21 identity but it would be global. It's 22 absolutely vital that we start thinking of 23 ourselves as human beings. It sounds 24 romanticized at the moment, abstract, but what 55 1 national historians did is flesh out the 2 stories, make them powerful. And I feel we need 3 to do something like that for the identity of 4 humanity and world historians is the best way to 5 do it. 6 The other issue of happiness, my 7 problem for this conference, I came up with 8 about 20 projects and that was one of them. I 9 thought I better not try and talk about it but 10 there is -- psychologists are increasingly aware 11 of the fact that the psychology profession has 12 spent most of their time talking about misery 13 and drawing the realization that actually this 14 is how the story is. 15 The other side is happiness and they 16 do want to talk about happiness scientifically. 17 And it's a serious thought but this is something 18 humans, you know, world historians ought to be 19 talking about and, of course, leads to the issue 20 of progress. I loved Marshall's famous article, 21 the original, and that's really the hidden 22 agenda. Is it possible people are better off in 23 the paleolithic era than they are? Is he right? 24 He probably overstated it. It had profound 56 1 consequences, as far as our understanding, as 2 far as this large story of humanity, so that's 3 my pitch. If we could construct the story of -- 4 I'm taking too much time. Very briefly, when I 5 started teaching history, I was talking to a 6 classroom in Sydney and told to teach my 7 students in 13 weeks about 300 years of Russian 8 history. It's a country with millions of people 9 undergoing -- (inaudible). And I had 13 weeks 10 to do it. It was completely ridiculous, the 11 idea of constructing such a story and yet, 12 historians take it for granted that this is what 13 we do all of the time. So quite frankly, 14 teaching 200 years of Russian history is a vital 15 project. (Inaudible). 16 MR. McKEOWN: Go ahead. 17 MR. ERIC MARTIN: I'm Eric Martin at Lewis- 18 Clark State College. I wanted to talk about Professor 19 Wills' comments about we can use that for this 20 forum. Also, is involved with similar e-mail in 21 groups and connecting ourselves electronically 22 is probably a good idea. But also I wanted to 23 bring up the folks who aren't here, with Libby 24 Robins and Will Steffen. They talked about epic 57 1 of the Africa Scene. In particular, they talk 2 about we're looking at a history and 3 particularly environmental history that's being 4 done without historians. And I think that this 5 is an issue that comes up with Peter and David's 6 concerns about policy issues. Their concerns 7 about public intellectuals and also these 8 concerns about how do we merge the natural 9 sciences and social sciences and humanities. We 10 have a very large environmental science program. 11 To the best of my knowledge, there are no 12 environmental historians involved so we have 13 folks going through biologists and going through 14 stuff like, you know, Jared Diamond's latest 15 work, Collapse, with knowledge, historical 16 perspective, and so whether that's simple as 17 whether showing up in our colleagues' hall with 18 a beer, or whether at least to be more 19 formalized, I don't know, but this issue 20 particularly on environmental history, I also 21 wonder about the environmental history 22 departments. Where the big problems in 23 environmental history are, they may not consider 24 themselves well historians but they are doing 58 1 what we need to do and establishing those kinds 2 of connections. I'm glad to hear it. 3 MR. McKEOWN: We have Pat, then David, 4 our colleague in the back and then Jack Wills. 5 MR. PATRICK MANNING: Thanks. Pat 6 Manning. And it's a little early for trying to 7 generalize, but I left my apology and thought I 8 would try to mention the categories in which I 9 try to fit the things we heard this morning and 10 working from the most general to most specific 11 level. When we talked about structures of 12 knowledge in society as a whole, I think Peter 13 and Boris are the two who intervened most 14 explicitly on the ideas that are governing our 15 work in the society as a whole and then within 16 that, we talked about the framework or the 17 standpoint and viewpoint of historians. 18 So this is specific to our profession, 19 and so Silvia Pappe introduced that sort of 20 thinking and most others addressed it in one way 21 or another. As we got later on in the 22 discussion, you had a distinction in approaches 23 to framework, which I've labeled as those who 24 dive into the research and those who want to 59 1 look before they leap. So Adam characterized 2 this distinction and all of this is before we 3 get to formulating our projects explicitly but 4 it's the framework of what we're going to study 5 that as a big issue. And the more specific 6 issue is the organization and conduct of 7 research. So collaborative research, Marnie 8 began the discussion on that at the level of our 9 individual projects, but we also learned, I 10 think, from Boris that there are general models 11 of the organization of research in society as a 12 whole or in the sciences versus history so 13 that's a topic for discussion. 14 And then once we start our research, 15 this is a smaller point, a difference between 16 what I would call the "follow the data" and "impose a 17 framework" sorts of approach. So Debin gave us a 18 look at a follow the data approach, especially 19 with regard to finding a crisis and waste 20 levels, following the data where they are 21 richest and trying to explain the world from 22 that point of view. I got introduced to the 23 other approach of trying to understand the 24 demographic impact of Atlantic slave trade on 60 1 African populations. The data will never do 2 it. You have to pose framework and construct 3 data within it. I think these two approaches 4 will balance off one another. And then the 5 issue of funding is another set of specifics 6 that have been highlighted for us very well. We 7 haven't gotten into the African subject matter, 8 world historical analysis, for the rest of the 9 week, I think. 10 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: David? 11 MR. DAVID LEWIS(?): David Lewis, 12 (inaudible) University. This may be stating the 13 obvious, but it seems the structural approach 14 that was outlined in David Christian's papers 15 and many of the others and the cultural approach 16 that Silvia Pappe exemplified is, in a sense, 17 one issue and the notion that the relationship 18 between the scientists and the humanities is 19 problematic. I'm not so sure we're going to 20 solve that one or that we may really be getting 21 ourselves into a dead end if we try to. I think 22 the problem comes that if we ally that with the 23 question of power struggles and the question of 24 local, regional, national identity on the one 61 1 hand versus a broad picture on the other, that's 2 a real issue. That's something that we have to 3 deal with, but that does not invalidate the kind 4 of research programs and big picture approaches 5 that we have heard here; and I think any kind of 6 statement of research priorities really has to 7 do justice to both of those levels. Not 8 necessarily to try to come with the synthesis of 9 one or the other, but to allow both of those 10 approaches to go forward. 11 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: And in the back? 12 MR. JACK OWENS: I'm Jack Owens from 13 Idaho State University; and I find that we 14 repeatedly used what I think is a very tired 15 term, and we ought to get rid of it. We keep 16 talking about the west and western, which is 17 a -- (inaudible) -- category. It's probably not 18 very useful. I, however, am a real western 19 historian because I come from a place where 20 there are real cowboys and I didn't wear my hat, 21 but I could have, and Eric is in the wrong side 22 of the State because we have the largest 23 concentrations of historians probably in the 24 world who are actually members of geographic 62 1 information science and we are putting together 2 now a funding proposal which is a comparative 3 study of the impact of raising on land use, 4 comparing Mongolia, Idaho, of course, and 5 Northeastern Spain; but one of the things that 6 you run across when you do this kind of work is 7 something that I think ties together things that 8 Adam felt were separate streams in this panel 9 and it's the issue of scale, which both cut and 10 Silvia and David, in fact, mentioned implicitly 11 because it's not easy to make transformations 12 between different scales of examination. And 13 one of the things that you have to do, and I was 14 thinking in terms of data basis here, one of the 15 things that you have to do is think very 16 carefully about how you represent your data in 17 the data basis; and the one thing that you don't 18 want to lose in the world history is the kind of 19 thing that those speakers who talked about 20 dealing with history writing and historiography 21 all mention it one way or another, that other 22 people see the issues related to scale and scale 23 here both in terms of time and in terms of 24 space. And so that you have to define very 63 1 carefully first the spacial and temporal -- 2 (inaudible) -- by those people. In other words, 3 how they actually classify things, and then the 4 other issue is semantics, because they 5 oftentimes use specific words, and I'm not 6 talking about here simply because they use 7 different languages but different words to talk 8 about these things. And when you do a real 9 database, a digital one, you have to have some 10 way to search. And the only way to be able to 11 do that is that you have to take into account 12 all of these different ways of talking about 13 these specific things that you might want to 14 look at, explore, or assemble in a database; and 15 I think that's an important way of the kind of 16 work that's been talked about in this panel. In 17 fact, pulls together or at least for me. 18 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: Jack Wills? 19 MR. JACK WILLS: Yes. I'll do this 20 without the benefit of the microphone. If you 21 can hear me. If you're going to go around the 22 corner to your scientist colleague with a beer 23 in hand, take some pizza, they are always 24 hungry. They have always been up all night 64 1 watching TV. They take a copy of J.R. 2 McNeill's "Something New under the sun" and 3 say, "here. Read this and tell me what you 4 think," because I think this is a lovely 5 baseline for interaction between scientists and 6 historians on what has happened in the 20th 7 Century and what historians can bring to it. A 8 year ago now, I was teaching a short course, 9 fourth year student in Leiden, on the new big 10 books in world history. We read David. We 11 read -- (inaudible). We read Vic Lieberman. 12 We read Chris Bayly. But it was McNeil's book 13 that really grabbed these very smart 22-year-old 14 northwest Europeans and they were really ready 15 to run with this thing and to talk about all 16 they see, the environmental crisis as the crisis 17 of their adult lives. And I think that this is 18 a -- (inaudible) -- that we ought to embrace and 19 that we just happen to have a very smart single 20 volume as a place to start by it. 21 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: Howard Spodek, and 22 then see if the panel has responses. 23 MR. HOWARD SPODEK: Howard Spodek, 24 Temple University. What we haven't spoken about 65 1 so far is how our audiences -- we are talking 2 about what we are doing. Some of us are talking 3 about what we might be doing and some of us are 4 talking about what we should be doing. But we 5 also have to talk about what we perceive our 6 audiences to be. I've worked a lot with school 7 teachers and university professors who are 8 designing their curriculum and one first 9 question is, what do our students and what do 10 our colleagues need to know and what do they 11 think they need to know? 12 I was struck, as you were talking also 13 about the narratives, of resistance and the 14 narratives, religious narratives also, which 15 oftentimes do have world histories. A couple of 16 the papers in the next couple of days talk about 17 narratives of resistance. Peter was mentioning 18 them as well, sort of, well, narratives, 19 resistance of -- they have an idea of what world 20 history is composed of and many of the people 21 who articulated those narratives were political 22 leaders and they understood their audiences very 23 differently from the way in which professional 24 historians and teachers and writers understand 66 1 our audiences and maybe we do need to think -- I 2 don't think any of the papers address this. But 3 we do need to think of who the audiences for 4 world history might be and why and then how we 5 individually want to interact with it. I won't 6 say influencing necessarily because as Japanese 7 saying they have their own ideas about which of 8 the subjects we touch on that is most important. 9 Sociological symptoms of the world is the most 10 important issue or they may think that earning a 11 living in light of outsourcing is the most 12 important issue. So we need to spend some time 13 on that as well. 14 MR. TOM SANDERS: I'm Tom Sanders, US 15 Naval Academy. I just had a couple of comments 16 on a very interesting presentation here. One 17 was in terms of historiographies. I think 18 Marnie worded it last year, mentioned the first 19 people and their visions of things. I think if 20 you're going to look at alternatives to the 21 western enlightenment, that reaching out to 22 other areas and, perhaps, other disciplines so 23 anthropology, comparative religion and things 24 like that, that might be something else. I said 67 1 the same thing in terms of search for happiness. 2 My wife is a sociologist. I'm a Russian. All 3 of her books are all so horrible. I don't know 4 how you can be involved with that all day. I 5 asked her what about sociology of happiness? 6 Does anybody write about that? So this is what 7 I encountered in work and, perhaps, if not 8 sociology of happiness, the sociologies of 9 unhappiness. The other side of the equation 10 there. 11 In terms of some of the issues of 12 identity, again, with Russian background, 13 comparing Russian empire, there is a special 14 world for Russian empire. I'm Russian. Yeltsin 15 actually used the term Rosiani, which he is 16 trying to bridge the difference between ethic 17 Russian and -- (inaudible) -- Russian empire. 18 But I wonder if there are identities like that. 19 I heard of something called 20 Hispanadad, which is identity to the Latin 21 American people to Spanish and things like that, 22 which can be used as a subcategory for 23 investigating kind of global purposes. I was 24 talking to them before during the break and he 68 1 was discussing the use of the imperial realm as 2 a unifying region for students in South Asia. 3 And then just in terms of funding, which is the 4 most important question, I believe that SSRC, 5 Social Science Research Council, will at least 6 look in an interested way at collaborative 7 projects, and my experience with these -- I'm 8 not a great fund-raiser, but I'm an ardent 9 one -- is that you can get a little bit from one 10 pot than you can get somebody else to match 11 that; and if somebody else is doing it in 12 Europe, then they more likely would like to 13 cooperate with that, if they see that out there. 14 And another idea that occurred to me 15 was the Sorus Foundation, especially for trying 16 to reach the global world history community and 17 people who aren't like us who can get funding 18 from these kinds of places. The Sorus 19 Foundation, they are interested in ways that are 20 creative but not expensive that don't benefit us 21 but benefit the people we're trying to 22 communicate with and that may be somewhere else 23 to look. That's all. Thank you. 24 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: Let me give the 69 1 panel members the privilege of comments. 2 MR. DEBIN MA: Debin Ma. I just want to 3 make a quick comment. I want to emphasize there 4 is a lot of possibility for fruitful cooperation 5 in economists and historians; and what I find, 6 for example, historians have known for a long 7 time, these are the books but picked only a 8 couple of volumes so I think the economists may 9 be better assembling today, putting them in a 10 systematic way of interpreting it. On the other 11 hand, it comes as a real benefit from historians 12 to history and also the ability to work with 13 archives. So I think in that sense, it is 14 really in this whole idea of cooperation and 15 science to try to think that scientists -- but 16 anyway, incorporate between economists and 17 history, I think, is really a good possibility. 18 MS. MARNIE HUGHES-WARRINGTON: World 19 history in the 19th Century were produced in 20 institutions but they were also produced outside 21 of institutions. Most commonly I found in moral 22 reform associations, and there are many hundreds 23 of them, of course, in the US, in Europe, across 24 Australia, so that's the context in which they 70 1 were produced and the audience was often 2 intended to be that kind of audience. One thing 3 that's interesting for me as a historian is to 4 not only look at the works themselves but was 5 reading them and how they received them is 6 extraordinarily important. Now, some things 7 haven't changed. I think that long history has 8 a moral imperative about it that it expects to 9 communicate moral expectations about what the 10 world should be like. And I don't think that's 11 changed since the 19th Century. (Inaudible). 12 These little institutions, these little 13 societies might have morphed themselves, but 14 it's moral activity in many ways. 15 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: Would anybody else 16 like to comment? Some comments from Boris. 17 MR. BORIS STREMLIN: I just wanted to 18 address the issue of the west, which was raised. 19 I think that the sentiment behind jet testing, 20 the west is a positive sentiment, but I think we 21 have to remember that the west is a reality 22 because people talk about the west. Not only in 23 the west but outside the west. It has something 24 to react against; and I think if we do try to 71 1 map out the networks of world historical 2 productions, we will see that there is a 3 territorial reality so we can change the term. 4 We can use something else but we can't just get 5 rid of it. I think the better thing to do is to 6 try to -- (inaudible) -- the category a little 7 bit more. I think people like Huntington don't 8 really do it justice because they make a lot of 9 assumptions about what civilizations are, but I 10 think just dumping civilizations just overboard 11 and pretending that they don't exist is not 12 really the way to go. 13 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: Okay. One last 14 comment from Silvia Pappe here. 15 MS. SILVIA PAPPE: Thank you. I think 16 we can't just separate west from non-west 17 because a lot of countries, a lot of spaces, a 18 lot of regions are both. Take, for example, 19 what Tom mentioned. There should be probably a 20 term, a conflict for America, Portugal, Spain, 21 Latin America; but when we talk about -- 22 (inaudible) -- Hispano or Latin America, we have 23 not including all of the indigenous people. And 24 we can't compare just easily countries like 72 1 Argentina, which have almost non-digenous 2 people, with Ecuador or Mexico. When we talk 3 about Latin America, it's a concept created by 4 the west from outside. When you talk about 5 inner America, then we have an inclusion of the 6 indigenous people. When we hear how people 7 talk, for instance, in Mexico, we were 8 concurred. They identify themselves not with 9 Spanish routes but with indigenous routes. I 10 think we can't just separate the both. We have 11 to talk about both in one territory. 12 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: Okay. I think it's 13 been a very productive panel. I think we were 14 open to more questions than answers, as the 15 initial panel should. Thank you. 16 (Short recess) 17 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Welcome back. 18 I am Zvi Ben-dor Benite from NYU, and I'll be 19 chairing this session. I would like to make two 20 technical comments that are important. Please 21 speak a little slower and as clear as possible. 22 Particularly those of us, and I live with this 23 all of the time, is those of us who have heavy 24 foreign accents, put them on a diet, make them a 73 1 little lighter, because I think we're talking 2 about communications. It is very important if 3 one is understood. Okay. It's always sometimes 4 neglected. So I think that is it. The other 5 thing is, when we are going to have the 6 discussion, I would like people who wish to 7 speak to identify themselves as clearly as 8 possible, like raise your hand, because they 9 know I'll be able to point out to people who 10 hand the microphones. Our session will be 11 smooth. 12 We are going to have -- this session 13 is going to be the social sciences and world 14 history, and it is around carving different 15 topics for world global research; and we have a 16 cluster of distinguished scholars by pure 17 chance, and the US and Germany are represented 18 here. And without further adeu, I would like to 19 hand the microphone first to George Dehner from 20 Wichita State. 21 MR. GEORGE DEHNER: Thank you very 22 much. First I want to say thanks to the 23 committee for organizing such a great panel and 24 I am very excited to be part of this. As I was 74 1 sitting through the first session, I realize 2 that my particular proposal is much more modest 3 than the first panel, and I'm okay with that 4 because I was thinking about that, that I 5 thought I was thinking very broadly and very 6 large; and then it turns out to be I'm arguing 7 really on a quite tiny section of it. But what 8 I want to point out about the proposals is that 9 we need to think carefully about what we do and 10 what we are going to do because there is a 11 sense, or at least I had a sense, that we're 12 thinking about reorganizing or reconfiguring 13 world history and that there is a chance, albeit 14 a small one, but a chance, nonetheless, that we 15 will lose some of the work we have done before. 16 And in my particular interest, which 17 are disease in history, it's been what I would 18 consider a pillar of the world history canon, 19 that it's been an area of investigation that 20 some real great works have been done, but the 21 thing I want to emphasize is that there is a lot 22 more work to be done in that field. And it's 23 one that I think that world historians are 24 particularly suited for this type of work and 75 1 it's one that I think we can carve out a more 2 prominent niche in this area of the 3 investigation. So I have three points that I 4 want to emphasize. The first one is diseases in 5 history, is something that we do well. And it's 6 particularly suited to the skills that world 7 historians bring to discussion that is different 8 than on the skill sets that historians of other 9 types do. So I want to make sure we don't lose 10 the senses that, hey, we do some very tough -- 11 well, let's keep doing it and do more of it and 12 take it into new fields in which it hasn't been 13 done before and related to this is that we have 14 some natural collaborators and allies that exist 15 out there that we use in some senses, but I 16 think we can be more efficient in making these 17 connections for them. 18 My sense is that we're not trying to 19 discard other historical interpretations. We 20 are just arguing that maybe that style of 21 historical interpretation is not suitable for 22 the large scales that we are trying to address. 23 And so I think that my sense on this is that 24 these folks are more willing to work with us 76 1 than we really recognize; and in many ways, 2 these disciplines are evolving into a type of 3 world history interpretation that is growing 4 towards us as opposed to being demarcated from 5 us. The one I'm most familiar with and one I 6 think is most explicit about this is 7 environmental history, so it's very interesting 8 that Jack Wills brought that up and also Eric 9 Martin, in that environmental history has really 10 evolved, that one that has begun to examine 11 larger and larger regions and to make really 12 strict comparisons between regions that are 13 localized in previous discussions and it's a 14 model for evolution saying that from Kansas, by 15 the way, is some -- but it's a model of 16 evolution for the field developing that I think 17 is particularly well-suited for world 18 historians. 19 When Jack Wills mentioned something 20 new under the sun, and I'm particularly fond of, 21 I was thinking something new under the sun when 22 I was constructing my thought about how world 23 history can interact with the sciences; and I 24 think it's a marvelous book and he really does a 77 1 nice job of bringing that discussion in; but 2 what I think is one of the strengths of that 3 book is that he reaches out to the sciences and 4 speaks to them in their languages. My work is 5 on influenza. And Edwin Killborne, who's a 6 virologist and makes vaccines and has for a very 7 long time, was at a conference in South Africa 8 on Spanish flu and he marveled at how little 9 science the historians knew. He recognized as a 10 scientist he didn't know much about the mystery 11 but he knew a heck of a lot about influenza, and 12 the folks who were writing about -- he continued 13 that some of the folks writing about influenza 14 didn't even know how the virus is transmitted, 15 which seems to me a basic sort of information 16 that if your historian tries to integrate that 17 type of scientific research, you at least have 18 to know some of the language. So I think those 19 natural collaborators and allies -- and so I 20 thought of this in terms of Eric Martin's 21 question about the environmental sciences. I 22 wonder if anybody has approached them because my 23 sense is that environmental scientists would 24 love to talk to historians about change over 78 1 time in these types of things, things that 2 historians bring to the table that others do 3 not, or at least we do much more efficiently. 4 So that the final point I want to bring up of 5 the three points is that this issue of 6 relevancy, which is one that in the 1960s and 7 1970s was an epithet but without using the swear 8 word that some folks associated with it, I think 9 that relevancy in this issue is something that 10 world historians bring to the discussion. And I 11 think it's a sense for diseases in history, 12 particularly that they are open to new views and 13 that want some sort of connection or 14 globalization or whatever term you want to put 15 in there, which means assessing large scales of 16 information in diverse locations and making 17 sense of them. That we can bring these skills 18 to investigations that are lacking them. And, 19 again, I have some examples in the paper, sort 20 of what I was thinking is that this opens up new 21 funding opportunities. 22 For example, through the NSF -- and if 23 I can make the final point, I think of this in 24 terms of how sociologists have carved out a 79 1 space at the table for the CDC. Sociologists 2 bring something to the CDC in terms of 3 investigating disease that other folks do not 4 and I see a comparable role for world historians 5 in these types of investigations. 6 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: We have 7 Professor Ingo Heidbrink from Deutsches 8 Schiffahrtsmuseum. 9 MR. INGO HEIDBRINK: Thanks a lot for 10 the invitation to the symposium; and when I 11 heard the papers of the first session, I decided 12 to change my paper totally and to give you a few 13 remarks. As announced in the program, you can 14 see I'm a maritime historian and maritime 15 historians means by its very nature that it's an 16 international infected global history, but it's 17 easy to see that very few contacts between 18 maritime history and -- (inaudible) -- 19 association of networks, and I think it's 20 absolutely necessary to bridge these gaps, and I 21 think I would propose you three arguments or 22 three lines of, let's say, future proposals for 23 corporation. First, I want to introduce the 24 concept of the oceans as a common heritage of 80 1 mankind. That's a basis of today's laws and it 2 was interused by Pridal Marty's book, 3 "Ambassador of the United Nations in the 1960s." 4 I think this concept of the oceans has become 5 heritage of mankind is at the same time one of 6 the basics for future maritime and -- 7 (inaudible) -- concept, and I think corporation 8 between nature and sciences and the humanities 9 in the word of the maritime or marine arm, this 10 corporation is very nature and we have a lot of 11 projects dealing with this, and I think the 12 background for this is that those scholars and 13 scientists dealing with the marine bird, they 14 have to cooperate with each other because 15 normally, the oceans are an area uninhabited by 16 humans and, therefore, those few people dealing 17 with the oceans have to cooperate and, 18 therefore, those corporations between nature and 19 sciences and the humanities is pretty nominal in 20 this world; and I think those -- (inaudible) -- 21 of corporation that are developed into marine 22 bird, maybe they can be an example as a 23 corporation, other corporations between nature 24 and sciences and the humanities. 81 1 Second, two-thirds of human life in 2 more or less an area close to the coast all over 3 the world. That means the oceans and the nature 4 effects of the oceans heavily influence all 5 human popularity; and that means, again, to talk 6 about this marine realm, we create a basic 7 understanding of the development of human in 8 general. 9 Third, and I think that the most 10 interesting argument, if you talk about the 11 period before the 1960s, then the maritime trees 12 was more or less the only tree that could 13 connect the world, that could make connections 14 between continents. That means the development 15 of maritime tree and the forces that dominate 16 the development of, for example, certain 17 shipping routes, heavily influence the concept 18 of which nations or regions got in contact or 19 that are not in contact. And, therefore, I 20 think this development of the -- (inaudible) -- 21 before the 1950s should be not forgotten in the 22 context of, let's say, examinations or anything 23 else because those private interests by world 24 private operated companies heavily influence the 82 1 possibilities of contact. I think these are 2 three points and there are many others, to give 3 you an idea of why those close birds of maritime 4 history as we have today should be named to the 5 world of historians. Thank you. 6 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Next we have 7 Professor Hans-Heinrich Nolte from the 8 University of Hannover. 9 MR. HANS-HEINRICH NOLTE: Thank you 10 very much for the invitation. I like very much 11 being here and enjoy the discussions. Now, to 12 put a long story short, I propose global 13 research on questions of violence. Why 14 violence? We are experiencing global attempts 15 to curb our outflow violence, at least some 16 forms of it. As violence, for instance, in the 17 fight against the death penalty, which fathered 18 in the 18th century in attempts to outlaw war, 19 which started in the late 19th Century and went 20 on in the 20th, or in the fight to outlaw 21 torture, which also started in enlightenment, 22 but also form of non-governmental violence, 23 trying to eliminate violence as a means of 24 education, private and public, classify all 83 1 killings, especially of women, as murder and 2 find ways to prosecute these as crimes. And 3 also another fear of violence, public but 4 non-governmental in villages and factories, 5 interethnic violence communities against people 6 of other religions, race, et cetera. We do not 7 know much about the context of the thing we are 8 just outlawing. We use concepts like -- 9 (inaudible) -- and yet, do not feel able to tell 10 many of the histories of these. That's why we 11 need more research. 12 Why global? We all have assumptions 13 that certain other countries are more violent 14 than our own. For instance, the movement 15 torture. If you read the book of Lewis or the 16 Russians, which is a common assumption in 17 Germany, the record in violence isn't so forth 18 either. 19 These assumptions influence what our 20 world views and politics, but we do not really 21 know many cases. We may be able to tab murder 22 rates per 10,000 habitants. But what about 23 violence in families of school? Therefore, 24 global research is necessary, establishing 84 1 common questions, working on comparisons, 2 looking for interactions. I put down some of 3 the literature in my paper. What makes research 4 difficult? As you know, still today there are 5 abuse even for governmental violence, some of 6 the genocide, as in the case of Armenians. 7 There are -- (inaudible) -- on torture as 8 instruments of governmental organizations. 9 That's a discussion you know in the United 10 States also. Much more non-governmental 11 violence and for the mix of -- (inaudible). 12 Violence in social relations within 13 villages, ethnic groups, et cetera, the sources 14 are difficult and quite often lacking, since we 15 need private organizations for the second part 16 of this, like letters, memos, et cetera, or 17 history. But to be a mix, let me give you an 18 example. We were working on false labor in 19 Germany, those who ended up in the concentration 20 camps. We traveled to the survivors and tried 21 to interview them. We sent them questionnaires, 22 asked them, et cetera, write down. They wrote 23 down their memories. We researched our 24 material. We also asked for cases of rape. We 85 1 did receive some statements but only statements 2 which were related in some distance and only in 3 the very late piece of our investigations whom 4 we learned that some of those women we talked to 5 also had been raped either by Germans or by 6 Soviet soldiers and, of course, it was only 7 possible to come to the conclusion and try more 8 about it because we had some women, elderly 9 women, in our group who worked with us together. 10 Of course sociologists and so on, but then also 11 historians of law and the present system. So 12 what do I want from you? That you agree that 13 this is an important topic for global historical 14 research. That it must be global. It cannot be 15 done at an international level. That you make 16 the project known in your countries and 17 contribute to the establishment of an 18 international research group. 19 If you compare that to the global 20 economic history network on which we were 21 informed this morning, and I had the pleasure of 22 taking in part in the conference in that global 23 economic, of course, you know the big difference 24 in the status of the art. But I think that this 86 1 is no argument, not to start at all. Thank you. 2 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Thank you. We 3 now have Cyrus Veeser from Bentley College. 4 MR. CYRUS VEESER: I'm Cyrus Veeser, 5 but that's close enough. I apologize for my 6 accent. I'm originally from New York City. I'm 7 going to talk very briefly about the defensive 8 modernization. It's not a term I invented. And 9 I can't really make claims to be a new 10 theoretical paradigm. But, perhaps, it's one of 11 the grand generalities that Christian mentioned 12 earlier. 13 I became interested in the idea of 14 defensive modernization when I was researching 15 the Dominican Republic in the 1890s and an 16 American company took over the Dominican 17 Republic rather completely, the National Bank, 18 which had the power to issue currency, the 19 customs houses which supplied 90 percent of 20 Government revenue. It seems like a classic 21 case of private imperialism. 22 The company, however, was embraced by 23 the president of the Dominican Republic who was 24 a modernizing dictator; and so together, the 87 1 company and the president pushed for a series of 2 reforms, basically intended to move a peasant 3 society, largely subsistence, towards a 4 modernity that would basically involve cash crop 5 export agriculture. This included granting 6 concessions to foreign investors, changing land 7 tenure laws to eliminate communal land owning, 8 adopting the gold standard, building more 9 railroads and ports for maritime trade, and so 10 on. 11 The policies were met with violence 12 resistance from the peasant majority. The 13 dictator supported them right up to the moment 14 he was assassinated; and the point is that this 15 imperative to modernize was a policy throughout 16 Latin America in the 19th Century. One of the 17 most famous books in 19th Century Latin American 18 by Domingo Sariento is called "Barbarism," and 19 barbarism is the subsistence lifestyle in the 20 countryside. 21 By the late 19th Century, the Puerto 22 Rican intellectual, Anile Marie Hostos, 23 explained there were not only two choices for 24 peasants, civilization or death of barbarism was 88 1 no longer an option. The choice that faced 2 Latin America really faced the entire developing 3 world in the late 19th Century into the 20th 4 Century of the modernization was championed by 5 nationalists starting with Mohammed Ali in 6 each -- (inaudible) -- in the 1820s. The 7 liberal elites and Central Americans who used 8 for identification labor to apply coffee 9 plantations. You could include -- 10 (inaudible) -- in Russia in the events. 11 Certainly -- (inaudible) -- in Japan. It 12 meant -- (inaudible) -- in Mexico, in China, and 13 so on and so forth; and, of course, all of the 14 socialists schemes that were shortcut to 15 minorities also. 16 So it seems to me that the idea of 17 defensive modernization can be taken as a basis 18 for comparison of many parallel developments 19 throughout the non-western world, as we're stuck 20 with calling it. Latin America, as referred to 21 as non-western as well; and I think essentially 22 we see a process in which peasant majorities are 23 faced with indigenous modernizers and the 24 struggle plays out from there. There is a quick 89 1 counter point to this, which I think is also a 2 research project worth undertaking, and that is 3 to look at the sort of two great hegemonic 4 systems that have been in place since 1815. 5 First the British in 1945 and the US since then 6 and to specifically analyze their own policies 7 for developing in the non-western world. The 8 type of power that could be compared, naval 9 versus air power, the sort of financial systems, 10 the gold standard versus the -- (inaudible) -- 11 agreement, cultural domination through high 12 culture, British popular culture, low culture 13 under the US. Colonial versus indirect, and so 14 on. 15 This process has begun by Neal 16 Ferguson and others, but I think it's kind of a 17 macro level. I think there is a lot of work to 18 be done on a more microscopic level. Thank you. 19 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Thank you. 20 And the last speaker for Hispanic is Roland 21 Wenzlhuemer. 22 MR. ROLAND WENZLHUEMER: I'm not the 23 professor yet; but if there is anyone here who's 24 not a professor, I much appreciate it. Thanks 90 1 for the invitation. Thanks for this great 2 opportunity. I'm new coming to the field so I 3 am pretty impressed by much of what I heard so 4 far, and I tried to incorporate a few 5 last-minute changes in the manuscript, pick up a 6 few loose phrases here and there in the 7 manuscript that didn't make any sense whatsoever 8 so I'm back to Step 1 and I'll give you my 9 original, the original version of this, too. 10 I'm going to talk about 11 telecommunications and their role in world 12 history. It's a bit of a nerdy topic or I hope 13 you'll excuse that. I think it's one particular 14 trend of world history that it manages to bring 15 together in a room like this or around the table 16 a variety of the historians with entirely 17 different foci and specializations. So no 18 matter how different our research fields are, 19 our subjects are, even our time frames might be, 20 the desire to imbed our findings in a bigger 21 picture brings us all together. 22 So I would say connections are crucial 23 to us and to our research. They allow world 24 historians to ask and maybe possibly even to 91 1 answer questions that are fundamentally 2 different from those asked by what I would like 3 to call traditional history. So world history, 4 at least in my view, is all about connections 5 and connections are all about movements, either 6 movements of people as in migration, movements 7 of goods, or movement of information, what we 8 would call communication. The analysis of all 9 three of these is at the very heart of world 10 history but as migration and trade have already 11 received a fair amount of attention here and in 12 other settings, I will focus on the connections 13 made by the movement of information by 14 communication. 15 My general question here will be, what 16 does it mean for world history when one set of 17 connections with the moving information all of a 18 sudden go through a fundamental change? What we 19 will call the informational telecommunications 20 revolution, although world revolution has always 21 a very touchy topic or touchy firm. What I see 22 is a distinct lack of reserving in this regard 23 for much of human history. This is not really 24 surprising as information generally move either 92 1 with people or with goods or with posts; so, 2 therefore, the study of migration and trade 3 always means the study of communication as well. 4 However, in the early 19th Century, we witnessed 5 the partial detachment of long distance 6 communication from its traditional carriers as 7 in people and goods. So telecommunications were 8 invented and I've used the transmission of 9 information that has become dematerialized and 10 thereby freed from many of its restrictions. 11 This detachment from the restrictions 12 of what we will call material movement brought 13 free, at least free distinctly new qualities 14 into the telecommunications process. 15 Acceleration, a certain immediateness, at least 16 immediateness by the standards of the times, and 17 what might be most important to us here, an 18 independence from topographical or geographical 19 realities. So I believe that world historians 20 should keep this consequence of 21 dematerialization in mind as a key theme of 22 socioeconomic development during the last 150, 23 maybe even more years. Looking back from our 24 viewpoint as members of a thoroughly 93 1 informationalized society, we will have to treat 2 the history of our information society, if you 3 will call it like that, as a gradual development 4 lasting for more than 200 years now. And we 5 will have to go beyond fancy buzz words, such as 6 information society, network society, and 7 whatnot, and try to establish a proper research 8 framework and research methodology for the study 9 of telecommunications and information 10 technology. Only then it will be possible to 11 establish how the transformation of 12 international communications in the 19th Century 13 changed the interactions and connections between 14 individual world regions. 15 I originally planned to stop here and 16 leave the rest to be discussed by all of us. 17 However, I just want to pick up one or two 18 threats from discussions before. I think that 19 the analysis of telecommunications, of 20 international telecommunications, will be one of 21 the fields that lends itself very, very readily 22 to corporations between historians, world 23 historians, and the sciences because it's all 24 about technology and that's something that 94 1 scientists are very interested in, at least I 2 take it they are. That's all for me. Thanks 3 for your attention. 4 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Thank you very 5 much. I should mention Professor Richards, who 6 is supposed to be here as a panel, talks about a 7 related topic. I think one of the few things we 8 heard about is information from a global or 9 world history perspective. 10 Before we open the floor, let me just 11 say, yesterday I had to address a seminar 12 session about world history and defend the field 13 in front of a group of semi-hostile, 14 semi-skeptical -- (inaudible) -- like graduate 15 students supposed to be the cow in the river, 16 and we did. We had an argument, of course. The 17 possibility of world history was the thing that 18 was most tested. And after a while, we agreed 19 that some topics -- we can talk about topics 20 that actually or are subject for subject inquiry 21 that surfaced only when we can think of a world 22 or global perspective; and also, there are all 23 topics or all subjects we get new meanings or 24 receive new meanings when we look at them from a 95 1 global perspective. So I was listening to my 2 colleagues here. I was trying to do the same, 3 to divide the two groups, to divide the topic 4 that we heard here to those of the first 5 category or the second; namely, topics that are 6 by definition global or topics that could really 7 benefit a lot from becoming global from a global 8 perspective. So I did this little chart here 9 and then I kept moving topics from one side to 10 the other. Actually, that's global by 11 definition, and so forth. 12 So I don't know what I want to say 13 about this but this is just a way to approach to 14 start the discussion. Jack Wills. We have Jack 15 Wills, University of Southern California. 16 MR. JACK WILLS: It struck me, we were 17 hearing several times about interfaces between 18 technology and historical change that could be 19 put in a longer time perspective. If we do 20 violence today, one of the -- enhances of 21 violence today is the tremendous number of 22 firearms that were left around by the Cold War, 23 which continue to be supplemented by every -- 24 (inaudible) -- with a second Ukrainian pilot 96 1 flying south with a load of AK -- (inaudible) -- 2 and coming back with a load of grapes for us to 3 buy in Amsterdam or Berlin. 4 So all of us, everybody in 5 northwestern Europe who buys grapes in the 6 wintertime is complicit in the violence in 7 Africa. And this could be built into a longer 8 story that Jeffrey Parker started a long time 9 ago and did a lot of controversy about it, about 10 the different roles in the changing rules of 11 firearms as they spread around the world in 12 early modern times. The destationalization of 13 communication can be built into the rather 14 well-known longer story of print and at the 15 various forums of use of print and refusal of 16 print in the early modern world. 17 And in disease, I would love to talk 18 about addiction as well and if anybody here, 19 besides our beloved absent colleague, John 20 Richards, knows it, wants to talk to me about 21 opium, see me on a break. Okay. 22 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Pat Manning. 23 MR. PATRICK MANNING: Pat Manning. I 24 want to mention John Richards again. Just to 97 1 add an underscore, one of the points, as in his 2 presentation on the emphasis on the state in 3 history, that point is clearly understood, in 4 general. The particular point that he 5 mentioned, and I want to underscore, is setting 6 the public, the finance of states and Don is 7 most of the way through work on surveying the 8 finances, the possible state; and the point is 9 that as a way of steadying large states, 10 colonial states, imperial states, recent states 11 and even very early states, these public -- 12 these financial documents provide data that are 13 precise to their limitations but have certain 14 real implications; and the idea of more large 15 scale or coordinated work to develop scholars 16 who will investigate the finances of the states 17 is another thing that clearly belongs in our 18 list of things to do. 19 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: The gentleman 20 here. 21 MR. DAVID NORTHROP: David Northrop, 22 Boston College. Like Jack Wills, I was struck 23 by the suggestive qualities of these papers in 24 the ways in which we might think of larger 98 1 context in which to group them so that they 2 would reach further back in time and maybe more 3 broadly. I leave it to David Christian to bring 4 in the paleolithic component of this. But being 5 in the process of rereading Adam Hock Shields, 6 "Breaking the Chains," his study of British 7 abolitionists in the Atlantic context, I'm very 8 struck by the ways in which one can see that 9 campaign as the beginning of an assault upon 10 institutionalized violence and, of course, what 11 in a broader category has come to be called 12 human rights of which post of what I wouldn't 13 say that's completely out of category but most 14 of what we're talking about in terms of modern 15 violence would fit under that broad frame in the 16 effort to establish broad global standards in 17 this. 18 And like Jack, I was also struck by 19 how printing of very, very importance in the 20 very efficient book distribution system and the 21 postal system of Great Britain in spreading 22 abolitionist literature not only in Britain but 23 in the Atlantic fits in the earlier phase of 24 communications and likewise, opens up 99 1 possibilities for additional research and time 2 perspective. 3 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: The gentleman 4 here. 5 MR. TONY HEATHER: Thank you. I'm Tony 6 Heather, Boston University. I'm an 7 environmental historian. And I would like to 8 make a comment that actually bridges the early 9 comment that Eric Martin made about where are 10 the departments of environmental history? There 11 actually aren't any. There are a few 12 environmental historians in the United States 13 and members of the American Society of 14 Environmental History. There is even a smaller 15 group in Europe, the European Society for 16 Environmental History, the annual conference of 17 these societies, which occur in both European 18 cities and in the United States, usually draw 19 somewhere between 300 and 500 members that gives 20 you some idea of how small a group this is 21 compared to the American Historical Society, and 22 so on. 23 I think it's important to recognize 24 that this is a field without a paradigm. This 100 1 is a field that draws heavily, at least in this 2 country, on the history of the American west and 3 then in more recent times, the study of the 4 changes that have occurred in American cities, 5 primarily how you deal with human and animal 6 waste. So you bring these two groups together 7 and you try to create a subfield within the 8 larger American experience. Europeans are doing 9 essentially the same thing. I think the problem 10 for many of us who write in this field is that 11 there is a great deal of work being done in 12 Europe; but because most Americans, American 13 historians do not speak European languages, the 14 extensive archive in Italy and in Spain and in 15 Germany is inaccessible to most of us. 16 I read some of the Italian literature, 17 but that's only because my parents came -- my 18 grandparents came in Naples at the turn of the 19 last century, but I'm not able to engage any of 20 the Italian environmental historians in 21 conversations about my work and the work of my 22 colleagues here and their work. 23 Paul Kennedy actually wrote an essay 24 review recently in the New York Review of Books 101 1 in which he claimed that something new under the 2 sun is probably going to be one of the most 3 influential books in the next century. I just 4 wanted to respond to your earlier comment. 5 The other issue, I think, for 6 environmental historians for which there is a 7 great deal of science now, and much of it is 8 accessible to non-scientists is the issue of 9 climate change. J.R. McNeil actually writes in 10 the -- (inaudible) -- under the sun that climate 11 is a contested category; that one cannot really 12 find much in the existing historical literature 13 about the impact of climate change on past 14 civilizations; but it is clear that we are 15 living in an integral -- (inaudible) -- and we 16 have been living in that integral -- 17 (inaudible) -- in the past 10,000 years. 18 And if you look out over the last one 19 million years, periods of glaciation, in the 20 last approximately 90,000 years so we may be in 21 the last 100 years, the last few thousand years 22 of what we think of as civilization. How we 23 respond to that is certainly not a topic for 24 historians but it's certainly something we need 102 1 to think about when we write narratives. Not to 2 lose one's connection to what Paul Christian was 3 describing as the details, I think that there 4 are terrific world environmental history topics 5 to be written around subjects like human 6 evolution, agriculture, manufacturing, turning 7 commodities into consumable products. If you 8 want to talk about a different kind of violence, 9 you can talk about the ways in which we 10 willfully transform the natural world, removing 11 native populations from those areas in order to 12 produce goods for the "modern world." Thank 13 you. 14 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Thank you. 15 Peter Gran. 16 MR. PETER GRAN: Peter Gran, Temple 17 University. My reaction to listening to the 18 panel is that from the point of view of writing 19 the final discussion of this symposium, we now 20 come to the part of the symposium where a member 21 of terribly important potential initiatives 22 begin to be introduced. So I'm trying to think 23 now of how this fit into a history profession 24 already in existence, already structured in a 103 1 different way, and taking this document, which 2 is simply the final document, somehow as to make 3 a claim for the niche for world history, above 4 and beyond the kind of service function which it 5 sort of historically occupied. So my reaction 6 to listening to what you haven't specifically 7 raised is, perhaps, the claim could be made that 8 the case of each of your presentations that you 9 are insisting on the value of historizing large 10 scale themes and you're saying that we can do it 11 and national historians can't. And so you're 12 saying in a different way something else that in 13 order for there to be historianization, many 14 different subjects, you have to have world 15 history. Otherwise, you have to acknowledge 16 that history really can't do anything, except 17 study the past and then current events in which 18 they defer basically to the newspaper or 19 whatever to get their information. 20 But we are the road beyond the colony. 21 We are the ones by virtue of attempting to 22 penetrate into these broader themes. We're the 23 ones which carry on the actual tradition that 24 the discipline in the 19th Century was set up to 104 1 create. Anyway, I'm not going to sort of say 2 this. We'll work through everything but if this 3 panel is similar -- if the one that comes next 4 and the one that comes next is similar to this, 5 this would be my notion of how this sort of 6 thing ties together. 7 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Roger Beck, 8 the person right there, and then Christian in 9 the back. 10 MR. ROGER BECK: Roger Beck. I had a 11 question about defensive modernization and the 12 difference between that and westernization; and 13 the idea that many of the people who were 14 modernizing western Indians, Africans, whatever, 15 who had this ideal that the west had been 16 brought to them was the ideal and they wanted to 17 copy it as opposed to, say, the Japanese, 18 perhaps, made restorations and had a lot of 19 problems with Christianity as a means to 20 offsetting themselves, at least the west, 21 which -- or Alqaeda, which is perfectly happy 22 using cell phones and videos and the Internet 23 and all of that but have no intention of what we 24 might think of as modernization. 105 1 MR. HANS-HEINRICH NOLTE: Shall I 2 respond? 3 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: David, can you 4 wait? 5 MR. CYRUS VEESER: I'm interested in 6 the sort of variety of local reactions to this 7 imperative to defend themselves either against 8 actual colonization or kind of free trade type 9 imperialism, however you would like to call it. 10 And I think there is a wide variety of reactions 11 from the embrace of the full package, which 12 would include, I guess, westernization to very 13 nuance responses that really try to fit the sort 14 of technoindustrial military aspects in terms of 15 state survival because I'm thinking at the level 16 of states. That's the real imperative right. 17 Mohammed Ali is interested most in 18 producing iron steel so that the Army can be -- 19 (inaudible) -- of western armies, and so on. 20 Fitting that into sort of local, you know, 21 religion and culture, and so on, so I think 22 that's exactly what we haven't done 23 successfully, is looked at this very sort of 24 nuance approaches to that threat. 106 1 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: David 2 Christian. 3 MR. DAVID CHRISTIAN: I just want to 4 say, David, I anticipated what I'm speaking, 5 which is, all wonderful things, Peter Gran made 6 a very well point that these are sort of topics 7 that world history ought to do better than more 8 conventional forms of history. But death, in 9 time as well as space, I think in each of these 10 areas, disease, McNeil said this very well in 11 his classic book, it's a sort of baseline for 12 understanding this; and it seems to me that that 13 ought to be in all of these fields. I think it 14 would be a mistake not to at least refer to the 15 very beginnings of human history, provide a 16 baseline of discussion about change. 17 Violence is certainly true. I mean, 18 the literature is not conclusive, but there are 19 certainly interesting ideas about the nature 20 than the violence in paleolithic societies. 21 Communications struck me that in the 22 paleolithic, what you begin to see is the 23 materialization of communications so it may be 24 several hundred, 100,000 years later, what 107 1 you're looking at is the dematerialization of 2 communications and, of course, maritime history. 3 It's absolutely essential to one's understanding 4 of the paleolithic. I think the archaeologists 5 increasingly are aware of the fact that one of 6 the huge holes in our understanding of 7 paleolithic is precisely that so much took place 8 around coast lines and it's buried. For 9 example, how migration moves to the America. I 10 think there is increasing discussion about the 11 possibility that they were actually maritime and 12 that may be one of the reasons we have. 13 My picture is simply that world 14 historians -- I think it's very often important 15 at least to try and touch base with the idea 16 that the paleolithic era may divide baseline for 17 our discussions and without that, every 18 discussion is slightly -- (inaudible) -- as 19 world history, it seems to me. 20 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Do you want to 21 react to this? Sometimes we want to react. 22 Maybe after David. 23 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: David Kalivas, 24 Middlesex Community College and H World. Thank 108 1 you for the pleasure, and I think I want to 2 encourage everybody to give me their names and 3 e-mail addresses. So if you're not a subscriber 4 to H World, you soon will be. It is a very good 5 discussion forum and it's a way, perhaps, to 6 operationalize more international collaboration. 7 However, I want to also make a point of the 8 paleolithic. I think without the paleolithic, 9 they were very successful, we wouldn't be here 10 having this discussion. It did succeed in some 11 capacity and the fact that we're here. 12 However, I also want to just try and 13 get my arms around this whole topic that we are 14 discussing so far, world history, and how to do 15 it and suggest that we also begin to think about 16 the framework of analysis or unit of analysis 17 that we can use in creating the human narrative 18 or the total history. 19 We had many suggestions and we had 20 some ideas about that, but maybe as we begin to 21 comment and think, we should think, make 22 suggestions as to say what are the analyses that 23 we are going to use. It strikes me that 24 sexualization is one of the problems of our 109 1 field. I'll go back to departments after this 2 symposium, and hopefully, intellectually and 3 otherwise, as we go back to our departments, 4 we'll go back to areas of sexualization. We 5 will go back to departments that will want 6 graduate programs or undergraduate programs, 7 want us to be focusing within certain sexual 8 areas; and we are here saying what we need to 9 challenge that so one way to challenge that is 10 by coming up, perhaps, in our document with a 11 set for what are the units of analysis to 12 challenge, you know, whether it's traditional, 13 whether it's nation's state or regional area 14 studies. 15 We know that no region of the world 16 around us has ever developed without its 17 connections and interactions to the other 18 regions and so coming up with those views might 19 be useful. 20 I always like to suggest that we use 21 zones of interaction. They are imperical, too; 22 but if we begin to use those interactions -- I 23 love the maritime historian's notion of the 24 oceans. I think we do have the Mediterranean. 110 1 We do have the Atlantic Ocean Zone. We do have 2 the Indian Ocean Zone and we use these zones in 3 discussions that I think are creating a concrete 4 list of zones, both land based and -- 5 (inaudible) -- Zone, for instance. The Saharan 6 Zone and in utilizing the -- (inaudible). I 7 don't know. But in their work at larger cross 8 regional areas and creating that framework to do 9 the kind of work in creating these total 10 histories or a total history might be something 11 to consider as we carry on on our dialogue. I 12 don't have any conclusion. I remember simply, 13 offer this notion that we know interaction and 14 units analysis and finally, telecommunications. 15 Telecommunications and direct 16 communications obviously are great and we need 17 to maximize exploring the use of innovative 18 Internet based communications to do our work, 19 and we also shouldn't forget to print out our 20 work. 21 I just wanted to mention it's great to 22 have a digital database. It's also good to 23 remember the hard drives crash and technology 24 has changed so it's a reminder. I did my 111 1 research using biography, intellectual 2 biography, and I would love reading all of the 3 letters and correspondence and travel diaries 4 with my subject and I wondered what would have 5 happened if it was all digitized and if it 6 crashed, it crashed. It would have been lost. 7 So as much as I'm an advocate and I'm 8 using innovative technology and I've been using 9 experimental worlds in my classes, that's a 10 story in and of itself. I just wanted to 11 mention what's printed out for the future 12 generations to look back and see our mistakes as 13 well. Thanks. 14 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Maybe some 15 comments from you, Professor Nolte. 16 MR. HANS-HEINRICH NOLTE: I'm very 17 grateful for the contributions. Of course -- 18 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Please speak 19 into the microphone. Speak loudly, slowly, and 20 clearly. 21 MR. HANS-HEINRICH NOLTE: Thanks for 22 the contributions. And I started with a "yes," 23 but, of course, "yes" is an argument on middle 24 ages and changes to what he thinks civilized 112 1 process in the modern world is. And in my 2 paper, I also did a little bit about 3 interactions. I mean, it's really interesting 4 that Adolph Hitler, who said Russia is our 5 India, this was his thought and other points in 6 this also, but I do think that our corporation, 7 our partners in corporations, are historians of 8 laws and of justice systems and of the prison 9 systems which are this whole group of historians 10 with whom we could incorporate this question 11 very well and also come to the questions of 12 human rights. 13 But also for Europeans, it comes to the 14 idea these are, of course, different ideas of 15 human rights also in relation to violence and 16 firearms. I mean, you know that the European 17 definition of a state, at least in many 18 definitions, is a monopoly of violent -- has the 19 monopoly of violence, while the American 20 definition of firearms is that everyone has the 21 fundamental right to keep firearms. So this 22 really is a long and broad process in which we 23 need a lot of people cooperating in order to get 24 things clear and get it on a database. Of 113 1 course, I would like a database, not that that 2 would be the end of it, but it would definitely 3 be an important part of the world. Thank you. 4 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Thank you. 5 Roland Wenzlhuemer. 6 MR. ROLAND WENZLHUEMER: Roland 7 Wenzlhuemer. Telecommunications has been 8 mentioned a couple of times. I find it very 9 hard to pull all of these loose threads and 10 things together but I'll try. I think one thing 11 that has to be mentioned is that we'll have to 12 go beyond just what I call telecommunications 13 and look further back in time to the printing 14 press to -- I don't know -- like beacons or 15 writing all of that information and 16 communication; and why should we do that? 17 Because it gives us a better understanding of 18 the rights of the people who were using these 19 technological meetings. It gives a better 20 understanding of what they -- what the world was 21 to them, how far they could reach out, what 22 they've perceived as the world in which they are 23 living and I think that is fundamental for world 24 historians. 114 1 One last thing. I'm working on a 2 research project which turns out to be way more 3 difficult than I ever imagined. I'm trying to 4 paint a longer picture of how telecommunications 5 evolved from Teligrave to the Internet and the 6 idea behind that was that I was never really 7 comfortable with the idea of great breaks in the 8 history of telecommunications, like sales 9 advocates breaking in the 1960s. So I was 10 rather seeing the -- (inaudible) -- evolutionary 11 development in a way so I tried to integrate 12 these roughly 200 years of telecommunications 13 evolution and find it very, very hard to do so. 14 Just imagine how hard it might be to construct a 15 line of development that goes from writing to 16 the Internet just as work is waiting for us. 17 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: I would like 18 to say something, because just in response to 19 this. Then we'll come back to the floor. Now, 20 I'm speaking as someone from the audience. You 21 know, there are two points about 22 telecommunications, dematerialized 23 communications. I think one point is that this 24 idea exists as a possibility for thousands of 115 1 years. I mean, prophecy and the idea of 2 prophecy. 3 MR. HANS-HEINRICH NOLTE: Prophecies 4 are very far away. 5 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: But the idea 6 of prophecy is information is conveyed and into 7 the dematerialized world. Every single scholar 8 had a personal angel that was conveying 9 information through them, meaning Buddhism. It 10 also exists. You can reach a situation where 11 you can have information or realizations in 12 that. Even there was one school that actually 13 didn't try to overcome the idea of materialized 14 transmission of information. So that is that -- 15 (inaudible) -- existed in the possibility I 16 think in the human country in different places 17 in the world. 18 The other thing is in the knowledge 19 that always presented itself, as has been 20 submitted in a dematerial way, tended to be more 21 universal in its scope. Think about the oracles 22 of the nations, of the -- (inaudible). Think of 23 the -- (inaudible) -- relations, as opposed to 24 something that always presented as something 116 1 that was always transmitted, improper material, 2 identifiable channels as opposed to this. Just 3 a thought. 4 MR. CYRUS VEESER: To respond to the 5 paleolithic question, I have no problem with 6 expending our view back pretty far; but I think 7 that there are a lot of issues that are kind of 8 adjacent to high profile issues that we are 9 aware of and that there has been a lot of 10 research on and, for example, David Northrop 11 mentioned the sort of worldwide anti-slavery 12 campaigns and that kind of network that grew up 13 around that. There is a fair amount of work on 14 anti-slavery. There is a related phenomenon 15 which is much less explored, which is forced 16 labor and -- (inaudible), which was used 17 throughout the colonial world into the post 18 World War II period. And I don't think there is 19 much research on that at all. 20 Another topic would be kind of the 21 persistence of collective or communal land 22 ownership in many parts of the world, in Latin 23 America, in Africa, in Asia, that makes it into 24 the 20th Century, and I don't think that there 117 1 has been a systematic study of that either in 2 sort of all of the different strategies used to 3 chip away at that. So I think we should go back 4 hundreds of thousands of years, but I think 5 there are plenty of great topics that we haven't 6 exhausted yet in the past 200 years of world 7 history as well. 8 MR. GEORGE DEHNER: I also want to 9 take on the paleolithic notion. I agree that 10 you can certainly see some of the patterns in 11 relation in my particular field for diseases; 12 but I also think we need to keep in mind that 13 there are qualitative differences that go on, if 14 you think of two revolutions, the little 15 revolution which moves us to a new pattern of 16 living in close conjunction with animals and 17 with people. That is a qualitative break with 18 previous patterns of interaction and one can 19 credibly argue that the issue of 20 industrialization and the growth will see how 21 it's going to talk about cities later and a few 22 other folks are going to talk about cities later 23 and Tony touched upon the changes in living in 24 city life and the affluent that is produced in 118 1 that, that results in a change that is a break. 2 So in some sense, yes, drawing upon paleolithic 3 is remarkably useful; but in other ways, it 4 doesn't speak to living and crowded the other in 5 vertical slums when you're sharing an out-house 6 out back in ways that are different than living 7 patterns previously. 8 One of the things that McNeil talks 9 about, something new under the sun, is that 20th 10 Century is new because of scale, that some of 11 the other relationships that we relied upon for 12 discussions are lost or not as useful when 13 you're talking about things that such prodigies 14 amounts and so it is a qualitative difference 15 and not just a little bit more. 16 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: I think I saw 17 Howard Spodek here. 18 MR. HOWARD SPODEK: Thank you. Howard 19 Spodek, Temple University. I want to make four 20 unrelated comments. The first is personal. Pat 21 told us yesterday that Mr. Richards wasn't here 22 for health reasons. It goes beyond the flu and 23 those of us who know him might want to write 24 e-mails to him telling him that we miss him here 119 1 and tell him what was going on. The second is, 2 there is a difference, I think, in what people 3 are saying about world history, especially clear 4 between the first panel and this panel. We 5 talked about this a little bit over the break. 6 Some people, I think, have in mind that this 7 conference is about the project of world 8 history, that it is a project that we're 9 collectively formulating. I think other people 10 see what we are doing here and are sort of 11 seeing where each of us can learn from one 12 another, what we have to exchange as people 13 whose perspective is global and certainly 14 transactional, not so much how we can work 15 together to form the project of world history 16 but how we can learn from one another to expand 17 our horizons and to make our own work more 18 interesting and more complex. 19 I think those are two different 20 perspectives. I was reminded again of the two 21 groups that I had worked with much earlier. One 22 was a group of teachers whose job it was to 23 create a syllabus collectively. The other was a 24 group of university faculty who worked together 120 1 to see how they could learn from one another and 2 each would go back to his or her home university 3 and teach and write whatever they wanted to 4 quite separately meeting responsibilities of 5 their particular individual situations. 6 The third is -- and this is a comment 7 for Cyrus, for what it's worth -- when you spoke 8 about defensive modernization, I was thinking of 9 the Indian gaze with Gandhi, where Gandhi had 10 one view how he agreed about the British when he 11 came to power. He said, "we need airplanes. We 12 need power," and broke completely with Gandhi on 13 his notions of what it meant to be defensive, 14 modernized. 15 The final issue, the -- (inaudible) -- 16 had not come until just now. Roland mentioned 17 him and I was going to ask a question about 18 whether people found Costells interesting and 19 useful, and then I realized it's really a 20 broader issue. I think that to some degree, 21 historians of broad perspective of the -- 22 (inaudible) -- questions would profit a lot from 23 talking to people who are planners. It always 24 seemed to me that both planners and many 121 1 historians have attempted to find the total 2 perspective or very broad perspective for the 3 subjects they are studying. The planners do 4 this in order to move towards the future, the 5 good ones, trying to figure out the whole array 6 of issues that bear on the subjects that they 7 are trying to plan. Historians usually look at 8 what has been planned, what has grown up, and 9 try to put it into context, especially the kinds 10 of people like -- (inaudible) -- and try to put 11 those developments in a very wide perspective. 12 I've always liked Costells very much 13 because I think that he does have his sense of 14 getting a very global perspective on the issues 15 he is exploring but urban historians, many urban 16 planners tend to do that and so do urban 17 historians. I think it would be wise if we 18 think about what planners also do. 19 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Marnie? 20 MS. MARNIE HUGHES-WARRINGTON: Marnie 21 Hughes-Warrington. Marnie for you. I've raised 22 the question you mentioned a couple of times 23 here and we talked about cooperation between the 24 sciences and historians and other stuff but the 122 1 enemy is ancient history. There is a problem 2 here because national history is not a sitting 3 target. National history test is quite 4 transactional in its concerns. And I'm 5 concerned about producing a statement which 6 somehow defies us against national history when 7 national history is not sort of an essential 8 thing that is opposed to us and national history 9 and global history have never been from one 10 another. World history is national. National 11 history is transnational, so I just want to 12 raise that -- (inaudible) -- from national 13 history. 14 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: The person at 15 the back. 16 MR. JACK OWENS: Jack Owens, Iowa State 17 University. I'm going to start by saying 18 something else but after Marnie's comment, one 19 of the things that I've noticed at this meeting 20 where a lot of people here who are from the 21 United States, I haven't detected an historian 22 of the United States and the organization of 23 American historians, US historians, despite 24 their more ambitious name. I teach Latin 123 1 history and resent that name, but they published 2 in the year 2000 a very interesting statement 3 for world historians. It's called the Lapiatro 4 report; and while I think that the latter 5 sections of it are very weak and how to realize 6 what they were talking about, the first two 7 sections of it are very interesting and well 8 worth everyone reading and, indeed, reading 9 before you draft the report from this session; 10 but one of the points that they make has to do 11 with national history. 12 This is a body that studies a 13 particular country. And the whole stress of the 14 report is that it's impossible to understand 15 that national history, without seeing the way 16 that it's connected to what's going on in other 17 places and even within the United States, a 18 particular region or particular local can't be 19 understood without taking that into account. 20 And similar kinds of statements have been made 21 and Marnie just pointed out about many other 22 countries, big and small, around the world; and 23 so it's not a subtle target or even a subtle 24 subject as far as those who actually practice 124 1 it, but what I really wanted to talk about was 2 David saying about zones of interaction. We use 3 this metaphor of the network. Networks have 4 those and in this case, it's a very useful kind 5 of metaphor for dealing with a lot of things 6 that this panel deals with. (Inaudible). And, 7 of course, when you bring in a port, maritime 8 history is a fundamental subject. They also 9 tend to be areas that have a number of different 10 groups represented, ethnically linguistic 11 groups, classes, and so on; but in a more modern 12 context, of course telecommunications or any 13 kind of communications is largely a function of 14 nodes and when we get done, for those who want 15 to see it, I have a very strikely choreographic 16 representation of Internet communications which 17 is all based on that kind of concept. But even 18 things like violence and other forms of 19 interaction oftentimes can be approached on the 20 basis of nodes because they involve these kinds 21 of interactions among groups of people and very 22 often in more recent times, these have tended to 23 be cities and so consequently, the whole issue 24 of urban history oftentimes, I think -- well, 125 1 approach in terms of thinking of networks of 2 interaction and thinking of those cities as 3 nodes. 4 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Please begin 5 slowly. 6 MR. DAVID LINDENFELD: David 7 Lindenfeld, Louisiana State University. Two 8 remarks on the topic of violence. First, 9 practical one. From about funding 10 possibilities, I see all of the time notices of 11 an institution for this -- institute for the 12 study of piece that has money available for 13 research possibilities. So I would think that 14 that would be a very good place to go for 15 furthering a collaborative project, possibly in 16 connection with the home bolt to 17 internationalize it. 18 Second is a question, which is really 19 based on my ignorance but much of what Professor 20 Nolte talked about, were attempts to regulate -- 21 (inaudible) -- curb violence as it occurs, and 22 we find plenty of modern examples of that. 23 The question is, if we do go back in 24 time, if we try to extend that to the 126 1 paleolithic or even since then, can we find 2 examples of that? It's easy to find examples of 3 violence occurring and the artifacts that that 4 produces. But what about the attempts to 5 channel it to curb it? How fruitful would that 6 be? 7 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: David Perry. 8 And then the person sitting next to you. 9 MR. DAVID PERRY: David Perry, 10 McAllister College. Just to speak exactly to 11 that point, I studied interfaith violence in 12 medieval Mediterranean so I'm definitely looking 13 not, perhaps, back so far to the paleolithic but 14 before many of the topics have been talked 15 about, and I have found interesting answers in 16 just these kinds of questions, that one can look 17 at the history, for example, of the -- 18 (inaudible) -- from the lens of a promotion of 19 violence but one can also look at it as one 20 particular moment in that a long history of the 21 Catholic church attempting to establish itself 22 as the sole arbiter of what violence is 23 acceptable and what violence is unacceptable and 24 there are many movements that you can look at 127 1 that go right hand in hand. The same people see 2 no contradiction to those promoting a wholly war 3 against Islam so there are certainly ways to 4 look transregionally. 5 I also find that there are problems, 6 when one starts applying modern concepts, such 7 as human rights or atrocity or genocide to 8 medieval circumstance. I'm very interested in 9 the notion of atrocity because there is the 10 notion of atrocity but it has nothing to do with 11 definitions of war crimes or genocide made in 12 the 20th Century and that there is a long 13 bibliography that could be attached to that 14 sentence, but these are important distinctions 15 to keep in mind. 16 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Okay. 17 MS. ANNE GERRITSEN: Anne Gerritsen 18 from the University of Warwick in England. I 19 have four comments, and I'll be trying to think 20 of some creative way linking them and sounding 21 coherent and somehow I can't seem to do that, so 22 I'm just going to give them as they occur to me. 23 One is about this idea of west and how we 24 respond to that. I don't like it very much but 128 1 I also think there are lots of ways in which we 2 as practitioners of history and histographers 3 show, in fact, in this whole -- (inaudible) -- 4 here is one of my teachers whose name is 5 Professor -- (inaudible) -- and Chinese thought, 6 have you still got something called culture 7 China, which is not a particularly grammatical 8 term but with that, used to indicate why this 9 circle, which includes both people residents in 10 China and members of overseas Chinese 11 communities but also the widest circle is 12 culture China, including those who study China 13 or have an interest in China, and I think that 14 shows in a way a more meaningful way of looking 15 at approaching particular places and sites and 16 times and history. That's one. 17 Another comment is on the happiness 18 idea that came up earlier. I just wanted to say 19 that there is somebody at work in the economics 20 department called Andrew Oswald, who is an 21 economic historian -- sorry. An economist -- 22 that's the word I'm looking for -- who works on 23 the concept of happiness and has worked on ideas 24 of blocking happiness along economic scales and 129 1 find it quite meaningful; and if other people 2 are interested, that may be a way of moving 3 beyond the mystery emphasis that some of us get 4 trapped in. Two more comments. One is -- let 5 me see. Oh, yes. The idea of paleolithic. I'm 6 very sympathetic to the way David Christian 7 defended that idea and I can certainly see it as 8 something that's very powerful in a world where 9 nuclear weapons are threatening us all in some 10 way. 11 On the other hand, some of us, like 12 me, are somewhat new to this whole field of 13 world history and come from specializations, 14 like you mentioned earlier, and we would like to 15 venture into world history and linking, in my 16 case, Chinese mystery, to the more global 17 environment; but I feel a little intimidated 18 that I need to take paleolithic as well. I'm 19 not going to go there very quickly. So I just 20 want to make sure that maybe I'm the only one. 21 Maybe there are others here, too, who would like 22 to feel they can be part of world history 23 without necessarily being able to or wanting to 24 engage with this entire span of time. That's my 130 1 third comment. And my final comment is very 2 practical in terms of funding. I don't know 3 enough about funding organizations that exist, 4 and I don't know the two main British 5 institutions that we used to fund our research, 6 the economic and social research council and the 7 arts and humanities reserving council who both 8 have set up schemes now where you can link your 9 own research with collaborations funded by other 10 research councils and try to eliminate kind of 11 duplication of paperwork that's necessary for 12 that to facilitate precisely the kind of 13 collaboration that I see we would all hope would 14 come out of a meeting like this. Thank you. 15 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: I'm torn 16 because -- let's see. All right. This 17 gentleman there. 18 MR. RALPH CROIZIER: Ralph Croizier, 19 University of Victoria. Just following up on 20 one of the last comments, although this is a 21 scene that I see emerging here or tension 22 between the big globalists going back to the 23 paleolithic, et cetera, and those who are 24 focused on more specific ideas and projects, 131 1 just a reminder from one of the founding fathers 2 of the new world history, at least in the United 3 States, a favorite quote of mine, Phil Curtin, 4 world history doesn't mean doing everything 5 everywhere, at least not all at once. 6 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: The gentleman 7 over there and then David. 8 MR. TOM SANDERS: Tom Sanders from the 9 US Naval Academy. I guess on issues of 10 violence, I should say something. I thought 11 when you mentioned take over of Caribbean 12 Island, the company you were going to mention 13 was a company of -- (inaudible). I guess they 14 have done that several times in our history. 15 But my comment has to do again with -- 16 (inaudible). It seems to me both the 17 definitions of some of these terms, such as 18 violence and then the research of them, that 19 there are other disciplines, anthropology, 20 sociology, psychology, have a lot to say about 21 this and that I understand we are defining 22 things. It's hard enough to do what we do now, 23 much less add more; but as we're talking about 24 that, those were things that I thought about, 132 1 and in that regard, anyone who's a parent, if 2 you're talking about violence, and it seems to 3 me it can't just be stated violence because the 4 issues, for example, of violence in American pop 5 culture today, violence in a language and 6 violence in video games and in music and in 7 programming. So at the same time, we're trying 8 to ban violence in lots of other ways. There is 9 just -- (inaudible) -- homesick blues, you 10 know, at that same time. So I don't know what 11 you do with that; but I also thought that there 12 were some connections between the things that 13 you said. 14 For example, you mentioned Corbay 15 labor, which, of course, is in Russian history, 16 (inaudible), various types so the 17 interconnection between economic violence or the 18 economics of violence was another connection 19 that I saw in what you were saying. 20 A couple of more quick points. 21 Defensive modernization, which is a very 22 interesting topic, I believe, but to get back to 23 what Silvia Pappe said in the first session, 24 it's not just modernization against the world. 133 1 I mean -- (inaudible) -- modernization was 2 something against -- (inaudible). China and 3 Korea modernizing Japan as one of the -- 4 (inaudible) -- at any rate. 5 So I want to bring that point up and 6 finally, there is a -- (inaudible). He may not 7 be the only one who's doing this, but I know 8 he's working on who's looking at the banging or 9 the beginnings of the movements for animal 10 rights and 18th Century -- (inaudible) -- which 11 may to date end the abolitions and which, in 12 cultural terms, might be another definition of 13 violence that goes beyond the ones we've been 14 talking about here so that's my quick comment. 15 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: David Kalivas. I 16 just wanted to pick up with what Marnie and with 17 what Jack said, as well as comments from what 18 Ralph said. First Ralph, in quoting, we need to 19 think of world history as civilization, I think, 20 and that's a big challenge. And we get our arms 21 around that and really both in our Ph.D. 22 programs, right across the board, think of world 23 history as a specialization. We have great 24 difficulty with that, but we have to stop and we 134 1 have to just get into it, get our hands into it. 2 But the other thing is, we can't ignore national 3 history. We are from different nationalities, I 4 think, here and different states even and I 5 think we need to integrate national histories 6 and that's what world history is about in one 7 form or another. 8 I think when I speak to my US 9 historians, which isn't often, but when I do 10 speak with US fellow historians, I always tell 11 them, we can't exclude United States or world 12 history, just like we can't exclude China from 13 the world history, although maybe we can't 14 exclude Europe through world history, I would 15 think, or we can't exclude any of the European 16 countries, et cetera. So I think we need to 17 stop thinking about that, because it becomes 18 politically problematic. If we create ourselves 19 in opposition to nation states and we're in 20 those nation states, it becomes a little bit of 21 a political but also funding problem as well. 22 So we really need to integrate and understand 23 that the world is inclusive of these places and 24 we need to stop US historians in their tracks 135 1 and say that, you know, we are including you but 2 you are not understanding the world that created 3 and interacted with the US. It's not they all 4 do that. I'm just thinking, the US because of 5 what happens over here; but so anyway, I'm all 6 for integrating and I think we need to think 7 about integrating national histories because 8 they are the ones that are not doing the service 9 particularly to our students, who then get these 10 parochial world views and then go to elect 11 people who shouldn't be elected, perhaps. So 12 let's go on with the integrating national 13 histories and doing more mystery in that sense. 14 Thank you very much. 15 MR. ZVI BEN-dOR BENITE: Thank you. I 16 would like to thank the panelists and the 17 audience. I think we earned our lunch. So we 18 can break. 19 (Whereupon, a luncheon recess was 20 taken at 12:30 p.m.) 21 22 23 24 136 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: All right. Are 3 we all assembled? This is going to be the panel 4 on cultural and social analysis; and we're going 5 to start with Ralph Croizier, emeritus of the 6 University of British Columbia. 7 MR. RALPH CROIZIER: University of 8 Victoria in British Columbia. I don't have any 9 pictures to wake you up after a full lunch; but 10 wait until you see the next act. This morning, 11 collaboration is reaching out beyond the usual 12 bounds of historical studies as being one of the 13 main themes. I'm here to speak for 14 collaboration between world historians, and 15 those who are in artistry and more broadly 16 visual culture. I've been making this argument 17 for many years now. 18 First in my own bailiwick, modern 19 China field, more recently, after my second 20 retirement, to my comrades in world history, is 21 not an easy sell, and I wondered how I can do it 22 in five minutes in 1,000 words. Fortunately, I 23 don't have to do it all by myself. My buzz word 24 for you today is interdisciplinarity, hardly an 137 1 awful ID for world history. Yet, over and 2 around the disciplinary boundaries that fence in 3 intellectual inquiry in the modern university 4 system, hook up with artists, art historians, 5 and visual cultural scholars. And I'm followed 6 here by a real artist and art historian, living 7 proof of the benefits from the strategy. It 8 means I don't have to cram everything I want to 9 say in five minutes. It allows me to tread a 10 little on Parker's turf by commenting on the 11 general nature of this panel where artists are 12 in place. 13 This is the soft non-social scientific 14 culture panel, religion, intellectual history, 15 heritage, art. Another thing we all have in 16 common is a culture of complaint. Our areas are 17 important and are neglected in the practice of 18 world history. Call it the Rodney Dangerfield 19 Syndrome. We don't get no respect. For 20 example, in art, my favorite example -- and 21 Jerry Bentley isn't here -- 16 years of the 22 Journal of World History, one article, does 23 anyone in the room remember what it is? In the 24 Journal of World History, one article, 16 years? 138 1 Point rule. Okay. Just because we're 2 complaining doesn't mean we should whine about 3 it, who and what is to blame? I don't think we 4 should be complaining or be jealous of the very 5 substantial success in the last several decades 6 of our colleagues in world history who are doing 7 harder, more materialistic type history. We 8 look for larger causes, I suppose. Well, we 9 could take that old fashioned and funny cultural 10 history site guise and say that in the era of 11 globalization and the era of business metaphors, 12 the bottom line, et cetera, these are not being 13 sympathetic times for our cultural history in 14 general, but the real villain I'm going to 15 single out here is the structural causes in the 16 organization and production of knowledge in the 17 modern Academia, the artificial but very real 18 disciplinary device in the modern university. 19 Now, another theme from this morning 20 is the call to activism, and so I finish here 21 with boring from the 19th Century activist 22 phrase, "what is to be done?" One, connect with 23 and entice artists or listen to our fold. We 24 would like to invite them to our conferences, 139 1 organize panels for them, try to get them to 2 contribute to our publications. Jerry's 3 defenses, of course, on lack of visual material 4 was nobody submitted it to the Journal of World 5 History. Two, for world historians, open your 6 eyes to visual evidence. Not just in the soft 7 cultural intellectual history field but 8 elsewhere as well. Few examples. In trade, 9 porcelain is significant at the early modern 10 world economy. Migration studies, artistic 11 adiaspores as transmitters of cultural values, 12 cultural form, cultural identities, et cetera. 13 In politics, the totalitarian art of the 20th 14 Century in various regimes, the use of images as 15 part of a pattern of social political control. 16 Okay. Final point. No. 3. Maybe 17 it's most important. Don't just talk about it, 18 as I do mainly. Get out and do it. And here I 19 leave words, specific projects on connections 20 and comparisons rather than grand schemes or 21 narratives, at least for now. That might come 22 later. In other words, think globally but act 23 upon graphically. Okay. Over to Kate. 24 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Next we'll hear 140 1 from Kathleen Kimball, who teaches world art at 2 Plymouth State College. 3 MS. KATHLEEN KIMBALL: As an artist and 4 art historian specializing in art based 5 research, I'm honored to present world literacy 6 as a world history of research priority. Let's 7 consider the why, what, and how of this 8 proposition. Just as language literacy supports 9 text, visual literacy supports world art. Often 10 visual evidence differs from sources enriching 11 text image sinergies to a more complete 12 understanding. 13 In addition to more complete history, 14 visual evidence lengthens the timeline under 15 consideration by a factor of ten. Dealing one's 16 story from 5,000 to 50,000 years. Added to our 17 more complete and longer story is the span and 18 the nature of our shared neuro set of -- 19 (inaudible). Brain line studies continually 20 implicate biology history. We know that what we 21 look at -- (inaudible) -- our brain to see it 22 again even as it alters our very perceptions. 23 Our learning patterns are based in mere neurons, 24 universality of brain states -- (inaudible) -- 141 1 and the fact that two-thirds of our brain is 2 engaged in visual processing. Visual art occurs 3 all over the world and at all times, serves all 4 historic subfields, questions and comparisons 5 and it offers a path beyond western dominance 6 and world history. With all of these reasons 7 for visual literacy to world art, we might ask, 8 what exactly is world art? What is visual 9 literacy? Many variables constitute these 10 definitions but here I include three. Biologic 11 aspects, individuality, the formal properties in 12 world art objects and places, and finally, the 13 cultural context of world art. 14 Beyond human neurology, our biological 15 concerns, like the biophysics of perception and 16 questions about human nature and consciousness 17 changing over time. Formal analysis here 18 includes five categories that encourage learning 19 to see, which is quite different than the casual 20 look. Color includes complementary adjacent 21 analogous primary and secondary color relations, 22 as well as color categories and -- (inaudible). 23 Line includes types and qualities of line, lines 24 of sight and uses different kinds of 142 1 perspectives. Symmetries include both use of 2 bilateral and asymmetry, as well as visual 3 hierarchies. Media and working method include 4 what materials mean and why one is chosen over 5 another. Techniques such as additive or 6 subtractive, the selection meaning of shapes, 7 which are two-dimensional and forms which are 8 three-dimensional. Here you see glass, stone, 9 metal, and plant material in a symmetric design. 10 Combining variables leads to the question of 11 composition. These include overall design and 12 here you can note the use of color, materials, 13 line movement, and asymmetry or how one piece 14 may be extracted, duplicated, and restated or, 15 perhaps, by placing it in its larger context 16 redefines our original idea. 17 This brings us to historic cultural 18 context. Perhaps the most familiar aspect of 19 world art. This single glass tile is only part 20 of the picture but combined with other tiles, 21 gives a more complete image in the same way we 22 assemble questions to get a fuller story. For 23 example, who made the objects and for whom? 24 What was made? How was it done? Under what 143 1 circumstances? When, where, and how was it done 2 and made? What was its duration? Was it 3 fugitive or permanent materials? Does it still 4 exist and if so, under what situations? What 5 was written about it? Is it in a museum parking 6 route heritage site? Is it something similar in 7 your old culture? 8 Finally, what does it -- (inaudible) 9 -- about other subjects under consideration, 10 such as trade, religion, or migration? In 11 addition to diverse findings, it is possible to 12 look in all four corners of the earth and find 13 similarity by defusion or independent invention. 14 Why do such objects occur? What do masks, 15 vessels, or architectural metaphysically, as 16 well as literally, contain? What do variations 17 communicate? Why are compass points associated 18 with various means and shapes at different 19 places and time? What is the -- (inaudible) -- 20 in history? The world art legacy is an enormous 21 treasure of symbolization over time and space 22 that is waiting to be seen through world 23 historic lenses. Given world art's importance 24 in content, how do we leverage our patrimony and 144 1 achieve world art literacy? 2 Here are three ways. First, if you 3 have not already done so, add visual dimensions 4 and evidence to your research. Second, as Ralph 5 suggested, collaborate with your related fields, 6 such as art, anthropology, or evolutionary 7 psychology. To help you with that, I have a 8 free DVD for you to give someone in her art 9 department. It's down here. Please help 10 yourselves when we're finished. 11 Third, use current technology. Obtain 12 for yourself and make available for others the 13 skill sets and data needed for world art 14 literacy. Online sell study courses are 15 available 24/7, will give the skill sets and I 16 would like to make these available to you. 17 World art data basis and Websites within the 18 world history network will provide you with 19 resources. Whatever else the researcher gender 20 contains, I hope you will agree to empower world 21 history research with world art literacy. Thank 22 you. 23 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Our next speaker 24 is going to be Leslie Witz, who teaches at the 145 1 University of the Western Cape in South Africa. 2 MR. LESLIE WITZ: Thank you very much. 3 I think it to be quite useful to locate my 4 statements about world heritage and the 5 challenges to world history within what I see as 6 two broad trends in the symposium. The first 7 trend is what I would call an additive one. 8 Adding topics to the list for all historians to 9 research. We have many of them here. In fact, 10 I dominate this symposium. So we have claims 11 for adding research in disease, maritime 12 history, art history, visual history, China's 13 history, telecommunications, and so on and so 14 forth. 15 But then there is a broadly, a second 16 state of statements which personally, I think, 17 are more interesting as they challenge 18 assumptions and narratives of much broad 19 history and invite us to reconsider our -- 20 (inaudible) -- presuppositions. That's what we 21 include in our courts, why historical in culture 22 understanding of world history to interrogate 23 the concept of space to develop an understanding 24 of the universal discords and the practice world 146 1 history. To examine tensions between different 2 forms of territoriality, the historization of 3 world history; and although my statement here 4 has been placed in a session that conforms, I 5 think, to the first topic, the additive topic, I 6 want to suggest much more firmly in the 7 conceptual train. And the reason that I'm 8 looking at world heritage is it's not simply as 9 a topic. I don't want to see it as a topic but 10 I'm looking at it because I want to see how it 11 can be used to interrogate both the notions of 12 the world and of history. 13 So by using world heritage as a Cat 14 group, what I'm suggesting, like others here, is 15 that there are other possibilities and different 16 genders of world history and how the world and 17 how history come to be constituted, especially 18 in my instance, I'm looking in the public 19 domain, is central to this. So I'm saying that 20 central to the argument is the idea of history 21 not being produced merely in the academy but in 22 multiple sites and by many different authors and 23 in many different ways. And I think one of the 24 tasks, as I see it, as about how histories in 147 1 the public domain are constituted, the politics 2 of representation and the intersection is 3 between the academy and the public domain that 4 leads to the description of value and meaning. 5 So, for example, I would ask the questions, how 6 is it that maritime history comes to be 7 constituted and how do its categories come to be 8 constituted? Similarly for environmental 9 history. 10 So, for example, I would think of 11 somebody like interrogating the category of the 12 paleolithic. How have archaeologists, how have 13 they come to constitute that category and the 14 different meanings that are ascribed to it and 15 how is that taken up in the public domain? And 16 there is an example of somebody who's doing 17 research in South Africa. How is the stone age? 18 Who created the stone age? In a sense. And one 19 example, a further example, artists, for 20 example, who are looking at the world heritage 21 site, that's on the border of -- (inaudible) -- 22 Victorian force. Isn't that a wonderful name to 23 consider when you think of world history? And 24 what is looking at -- is how the site becomes 148 1 constituted as a universal meaning associated 2 with nature and the environment. And he looks 3 at that primarily through the knowledge produced 4 in the 19th Century by travelers, missionaries, 5 and by artists. Artists constitute the 6 Victorian force, it argues, but then he moves to 7 look at how other forms of knowledge come to 8 both contest and collaborate with the initial 9 making of Victorian force. Thus, when I see 10 what I would see in the world history where 11 we're sitting with research agendas, and I use 12 the plural, there should not be a prescriptive 13 agenda but plural agenda for world history. I 14 think the theoretical notions need to be 15 forefronted and interrogating world heritage may 16 be a way to think about going to do this. Thank 17 you. 18 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Next we're going 19 to hear from Anne Chao, who is studying for her 20 Ph.D. at Rice University right now. 21 MS. ANNE CHAO: The title of my 22 presentation, "The Case for an Intellectual 23 Study of World History," stems from my 24 fascination with the field of world history and 149 1 its potential to broaden my horizons as an area 2 specialist. In the process, however, of 3 learning and understanding world history, I 4 realize -- in the process of studying world 5 history, I've realized that its symbolic 6 engagement of the two fields results in a higher 7 level of wisdom about the human condition. I 8 believe strongly in the study of the 9 transmigration of ideas and that it must be 10 given a space in histography of world history as 11 a movement of ideas cannot be understood solely 12 how the study of economic or environmental 13 conditions. 14 There are points of conductivity that 15 we must examine carefully and independently of 16 everything else. To illustrate my points, allow 17 me to indulge in the only field I'm a little 18 familiar with and some of the instances will be 19 taken for modern China's history. 20 In particular, I'm going to examine 21 something in the history of the westernization 22 experience in China from the late 19th Century, 23 early 20th Century. When Edward Bellamy wrote 24 his book, "Looking Backwards," in 1888, he did 150 1 not realize that his book would be quickly 2 translated by missionaries into Chinese in 1891 3 and into Japanese shortly after. We can safely 4 say that the resulting -- one of the resulting 5 conditions of his book is that it kicked off an 6 interest in -- (inaudible) -- and socialism in 7 China and in Japan and not too far fetched to 8 say that the result of this transmigration of 9 ideas in China was a contributing cause to the 10 1898 reform and to later the 1911 revolution in 11 China. 12 Another case in point is the 1990 May 13 4th movement or the new culture movement and it 14 was brought about by a generation of 15 intellectuals who have studied abroad and 16 brought back to China translated text of Garvin, 17 Huxley, Montescure, Huso, Ipsin, and Carl Marks. 18 They brought about an intellectual revolution 19 for academic in the way language was written in 20 China, the champion ideas of democracy and 21 sciences and argued for political pluralism and 22 for women's -- (inaudible). 23 At the same time, Wildrow Wilson -- 24 (inaudible) -- of self-determination also 151 1 encouraged students and intellectuals in China 2 and Korea to fight for their control of their 3 nation's destiny in the year 1919. While these 4 examples misspeak, one way transmigration of 5 ideas from the west to Asia, he argued that he 6 could look at the writings of the western 7 journalists in China and to see how their 8 writings about China affected the western 9 perception of China and take away from the 10 Chinese area of studies. I would like to do or 11 have many historians collaborate on studying the 12 rash of student movement across the world in the 13 first two decades of the 20th Century. 14 My understanding is that there were 15 student movements in Africa and many of these 16 movements were inspired by the very same authors 17 that inspired Chinese and Japanese students. 18 These phenomenon need to be looked at very 19 carefully from the field of world history. 20 Thank you. 21 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Next we'll be 22 hearing from Roger Beck, who teaches at the 23 Eastern Illinois State University -- Eastern 24 Illinois University. 152 1 MR. ROGER BECK: I want to thank 2 Patrick and Parker and the other members of the 3 committee for inviting me to be here. I want 4 to -- (inaudible) -- Christian's question right 5 away by saying, first of all, that for some of 6 us, David, it's a little dangerous first to 7 pretend to know a lot about the paleolithic but 8 many of our students think we actually live 9 in -- (inaudible). 10 And secondly, I want to point out 11 about religion. For world history, we have the 12 Cape drawings and the various burial sites which 13 are some of our first evidence of human 14 societies and consciousness with religious 15 overtones. I came to the topic of religion in 16 missionaries not because my parents were 17 missionaries or because I have some hidden 18 religious agenda, which I'm often asked or 19 people kind of assume that's true, but because 20 of my own research in -- (inaudible) -- from a 21 dissertation in the Cape colony in South Africa. 22 I went to the missionary archives to 23 look for information about the traders and, in 24 fact, found that the missionaries were the 153 1 traders and that they were trading more than any 2 one other group to settlers in the colony; and 3 since then, I've just been fascinated by this, 4 all of the different varieties of the activities 5 that missionaries carried on and in all of the 6 ways that religion is involved in human 7 societies in all aspects of it. And I would 8 mention some of those in my proposals so I won't 9 go over all of the details. 10 It seems to me there are two problems 11 associated with using religion and integrated it 12 into world history. First of all, there is a 13 problem that religion is often compartmentalized 14 and not augmented to. If we get to religion at 15 all in our history classes, we teach it as 16 religion; and I think that as I say and as I 17 mention in my proposal, there are a lot of 18 different ways that almost every aspect from 19 this society we can bring religion into that 20 discussion. And David is going to talk about in 21 a second about how we continue to do research on 22 religion as a topic. 23 My second point, though, is that I 24 think that a lot of us are hesitant about 154 1 bringing religion into the classroom because we 2 might offend somebody. Religion is a problem 3 we're not comfortable with. Religion with 4 ourselves, perhaps, and so forth. I think the 5 answer to that is simply to integrate it into 6 everything you talk about. So that whether 7 you're talking about the Jihads, whether you're 8 talking about Christian attitudes towards 9 environment, whether you're talking about 10 televangelists and the use of all of their 11 communication systems, from the printing of the 12 bible on, of course, religion is in every aspect 13 of what we can teach; and I think by doing that, 14 you don't alienate and you don't raise students' 15 bristles, so to speak, by addressing it head on 16 and saying, "well, we're going to talk about the 17 truce of the different religions today; and that 18 immediately starts raising questions. 19 But if you integrate it all of the 20 time, I think it will make it much more 21 acceptable and much more as a topic of world 22 history. Thank you. 23 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Finally, we're 24 going to hear from David Lindenfeld, who teaches 155 1 at the Louisiana State University. 2 MR. DAVID LINDENFELD: Okay. I think 3 Roger made a very good case in his paper for 4 deficit in the study of religion and world 5 history, so I don't need to repeat that. I 6 would like to try to tailor my remarks to some 7 of the points that were made this morning. I 8 think an obvious one is that study of religion 9 is a perfect example of what Peter Brown was 10 talking about, a current issue that is on the 11 minds of many people. 12 And as I said in my paper, I think one 13 of the reasons for the lack of religious study 14 in world history is the lack of a really good 15 theory that enables us to make sense of large 16 and disparate bodies of data; and I think the 17 reason for this, when compared to our colleagues 18 in the hard sector of world history, is not -- 19 goes deeper than just the importance of 20 economics and the pursuit of greed or university 21 fragmentation, but really goes to the 22 enlightenment paradigm itself. To comment on 23 what Marnie pointed out this morning, triumph of 24 the secular view is very deeply engrained, but I 156 1 would point out that view itself is merely a 2 transformation of a religious narrative, the 3 Judaeis Christian of the progressive development 4 of history and very different from those of 5 other world religions so that when we even our 6 vocabulary terms, like traditional religion and 7 world religion, I think carry all of this 8 baggage along with it. One of the things I 9 suggested in my paper is a kind of a working 10 definition of world religion that might be 11 useful for world historians and trying to make 12 it a value free one; namely, simply a world 13 religion would be a religion which one finds in 14 multiple world regions or however continents or 15 however one wants to define a geographical 16 space. 17 And whether this could be then divided 18 into several times; namely, those that are 19 promulgated to conquest or privatization and 20 secondly, those that move with people as in the 21 Oscars. Perhaps one could add a third category 22 there of a regional religion as opposed to world 23 religion and local religions, but I think those 24 are relatively valued three ways in which we can 157 1 talk about it. 2 Now, the study of religion is very 3 clearly an arena in which all of the debates and 4 controversies and struggles overpower, et 5 cetera, are played out. It doesn't offer any 6 solutions, ready made solutions, to those; and 7 we heard one side event just now in Roger's 8 paper that many people think of the study of 9 religion as a study of missions and 10 Christianization; and it's important to note 11 that the American Academy of Religion now has a 12 session on world Christianity. They are 13 recognizing that there are more Christians in 14 the southern hemisphere than in the northern. 15 So that getting away from, let's say, 16 an imperialistic view of missionary Christianity 17 is certainly taken cold, but it's also important 18 to note that there are other world religions as 19 well; and what my proposal suggests is that the 20 study of religion is also an excellent way of 21 getting at the opposite end, the local 22 perspective, the thing that Silvia Pappe was 23 talking about this morning; namely, the way 24 which locals, society and communities encounter, 158 1 adopt, negotiate with these religious -- 2 (inaudible) -- coming from outside. That's 3 something I think that can be applied to 4 virtually any era of world history. 5 And one thing in my research on this 6 that I've come across is the liquidity of 7 visions and hallucinations. When studying these 8 things, which I suspect are due to some of the 9 same neuromechanisms that Kathleen Kimball was 10 just talking about. My own work, if I call 11 beyond conversion and syncretism, is a 12 comparative study of indigenous encounters and 13 responses of Christian missionaries, a topic 14 which I have no competence whatsoever. 15 My languages are English, French, and 16 German. I was trained as an European historian, 17 which makes the collaborative approach, I think, 18 all the more important. Any kind of comparative 19 work like this is necessarily built on the work 20 of specialists and people who know the languages 21 and the local cultures and can build from there. 22 And the advantage, I think, to our community in 23 going to that route and bringing in such people 24 is that much of the work that's being done at 159 1 this level -- and there is a great deal -- is 2 being done by anthropologists, by people in 3 religious studies. These are people that can 4 enrich our discourse. Just as hard scientists 5 enrich those who are studying environment, et 6 cetera; so I think mechanisms to bring in these 7 people are important to the ongoing vitality of 8 world history, and my proposal is for a 9 conference for the study of religion and world 10 history. 11 This I would regard as, perhaps, one 12 level down from a research cluster, the kinds of 13 things that have been talked about up to this 14 time. Certainly something that could be a low 15 budget item, not to say a no budget item, but 16 something where notices can be put in various 17 journals, et cetera, getting papers together, 18 getting conference sessions together; and out of 19 that, can grow the collaborations, the more 20 enduring ones for research clusters, grants, 21 et cetera. Thank you. 22 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Great. Heather? 23 MS. HEATHER STREETS: Heather Streets. 24 What I want to say was not so much in response 160 1 to what's already been said, but I wanted to say 2 this at this session because we're talking about 3 cultural and social analysis. And I think 4 actually what I'm going to say would work well 5 with any of the things that many of the topics 6 or categories that were talked about already in 7 this panel. But I wanted to make explicitly for 8 us as world historians to begin to use much 9 better the analytical categories of gender and 10 sexuality. 11 This is something that we do not do as 12 it doesn't feel very well. We are well-known 13 for not doing it very well and I think that we 14 are missing a huge opportunity to look at some 15 things that could be truly universal, and I'm 16 not talking about doing it in world history, 17 although that would be fine, but I'm really 18 talking about looking at gender as a social 19 construction, looking at sexuality as a more or 20 less universal human condition, no matter how 21 those sexualities varied over time, over space. 22 And I think that doing this would help 23 us. First of all, would help the field to grow 24 because I think at least I know in terms of 161 1 gender history, we've been involved with gender 2 history for a long time. There is a sense that 3 world historians are not interested in gender 4 history, that it is a terrifically masculinist 5 enterprise. I also just think that the kinds of 6 things, kinds of questions that we could bring 7 to world history by using sexuality and gender 8 as opposed to analytic could be incredibly 9 fascinating. Like the transsexuality as a 10 global phenomenon or homosexual, 11 heterosexuality, how these things play out. 12 There are so many things that we can 13 do. How does gender influence trade patterns? 14 You know the kinds of things that world 15 historians talk about for so long. When we look 16 at these same questions through the analytic 17 gender, it can really change the kinds of 18 answers that we have to them. So that would 19 be -- that's just something I wanted to add to 20 this reception. 21 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Could you 22 identify yourselves as you speak, please, so 23 that your names can be recorded? 24 MR. PETER ADEBAYO: I'm Dr. Peter 162 1 Adebayo. My main concern is for the case for 2 intellectual world history. I'm wondering, you 3 have to put the issue of -- (inaudible) -- which 4 is the world study area and intellectuals 5 talking about world history and other issues. I 6 want to take notes of that issue as part of our 7 intellectual study of the world history and as 8 it progresses. We should be able to look at it 9 because it has some right or repetitions. Thank 10 you. 11 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Peter Gran, 12 please. 13 MR. PETER GRAN: Peter Gran, Temple 14 University. I have two observations about this 15 panel, which sort of or a little more broadly 16 leans a little more broadly on the topic as a 17 whole. The first is, you didn't address why, 18 what was soft culture humanities, art, music, 19 heritage, and so forth, lack the status in the 20 current university context. In other words, 21 what happened, given the high prestige for many 22 decades in the 20th Century of the humanities 23 and how it was in a fateful period of the 1970s 24 and thereafter that things changed, rise of 163 1 social history and social analysis; and how in 2 that period, professors took the stand, which 3 they continue to maintain until the present day, 4 which was in a certain way that they would sort 5 of concede human society to social historians 6 while keeping a kind of high culture approach 7 and referring to other places as ethno music and 8 ethno art, and so on. 9 So, for example, if you read Groves 10 Encyclopedia of Music, or something like that, 11 you have a sort of a bifurcation between western 12 high tradition and the rest. So it seems to me 13 you can't simply sort of say that certain things 14 have now been sort of shunted aside. There is a 15 politics and struggle in -- (inaudible) -- 16 history through which this happened which we 17 really should explore to international 18 phenomenon. 19 This is simply -- this fight went on 20 all over the whole world. Now it seems to me, 21 my view on it is that culture has made a little 22 bit of a comeback in what's called social 23 cultural history in the western universities. 24 However, in what you would call more oppressed 164 1 communities in the west and in the third world, 2 social history continues to be the kind of 3 monographic norm among people who attempt to go 4 try to create for themselves an individual 5 identity against the State, which would make 6 them peasantized or anonymous; but in any case, 7 for those of you who want to make this story 8 visible, I mean, this is a political fight of 9 some huge consequence. Not more limited remarks 10 about religion. We're undertaking to think 11 about religion in light of experiments and 12 comparative religious studies, like Martin 13 Marty's fundamental from the University of 14 Chicago. So there is context in which we're 15 sitting here speaking about this. This isn't a 16 subject about religion any time and any place. 17 If you were to read at least in the 18 middle eastern stuff what people think of this 19 sort of approach, among the things they would 20 tell you is that the world religion doesn't 21 translate into other languages, and so one of 22 the necessities for a comeback of the subject of 23 religion would be that if someone responds to 24 the idea that our word religion doesn't 165 1 translate directly, other people mean other 2 things; and we have to acknowledge that, 3 confront that in a scientific kind of way, at 4 which point I think then we can sort of rebound 5 a little bit in this way; but if we continue to 6 say that the English word religion and, 7 therefore, the English language field of 8 comparative religions suffices, I think that we 9 are not -- we're being off putting in certain 10 respects. You can feel that, for example, while 11 some of the women write -- (inaudible) -- the 12 anthropologies, of course, I mean, I was -- 13 (inaudible) -- in my youth and I lived through 14 this until it was unusually a bitter experience 15 to watch the division emerge between the 16 cultural history, which I grew up with, and the 17 social history, which then emerged. So I say 18 this with a little affect and sadness and 19 nostalgia. Thank you. 20 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Marilyn Lake. 21 MS. MARILYN LAKE: Marilyn Lake from 22 LaTrobe University in Australia. I just 23 listened to my general comment to pick up on the 24 comment about agenda and also to ask two 166 1 specific questions for this panel. I think the 2 agenda issue is really interesting, having 3 listened to and observed this topic so far; 4 because one can't help but being reminded that 5 traditional history was produced in a divided, 6 conceptual divide between the public and the 7 private and history -- (inaudible) -- the record 8 of men's activity to the public domain, which is 9 why women's history didn't exist. It wasn't 10 related to the private domain where nothing 11 happened. 12 And in one way, you can see world 13 history as the public domain written large. It 14 is the large public domain; and that's like -- 15 and it's very interesting the way that we are 16 attracted to the idea of the strobe of mobility 17 actually in world history and mobility 18 connections, circulations and myself in the 19 least. That's what currently interests me but, 20 of course, my ability itself is very genuine, I 21 think, and there is a way of thinking about who 22 the agents are of world history. You know, that 23 they are frequently explorers, missionaries. 24 Even the ideas of Marks and Wilson and Edward 167 1 Bellamy, these main ideas circulated in 2 movements so whatever. I think we need to think 3 a lot about the conceptual categories of this 4 field, world history, and the way it rests on 5 this sort of conceptual division. They are 6 there, even though people don't acknowledge 7 them, and I think -- I mean -- (inaudible) -- 8 that issue of historical agency, who the agents 9 in history in general and in world history are. 10 And I think that also relates to the issue of 11 the waste and the rest. 12 I mean, and relatedly how, as we are 13 bringing in the others. How do we get other 14 people, other parts of the world in? This sort 15 of idea of inviting people in, but it doesn't 16 necessarily suggest how an historical agency 17 itself might be shifted. So I'll sort of finish 18 this with two more precise sort of questions and 19 comments. 20 I would really like your paper and 21 your work partly because I'm very much 22 interested in the circulation of ideas myself. 23 But I was just wondering whether -- I mean, I'm 24 interested to know in your work whether you're 168 1 also looking at intellectual agency, political 2 agency, of a specific sort within China. I 3 mean, at looking at the impact of Bellamy, 4 Marks, Wilson or whatever on China. I know 5 China students. Your track is one day as it 6 were, but the origins of intellectual -- 7 (inaudible). I just wondered whether you 8 thought about historical upping from one side. 9 That's one question. 10 Second and lastly, lately I've been 11 interested in your comments about world heritage 12 and the way that you wanted to be able to see 13 these not as an analitive thing, not another 14 topic, but rather, surviving conceptual 15 challenge in a different conceptual framework 16 about world history and what comprised world 17 history, and you actually used that phrase in 18 the public domain. 19 History produced, as you say, in many 20 public domains which just supported that name, 21 the public domain, but I just wondered if you 22 could suggest ways, some of the insights that we 23 might get into world history through looking at 24 it through a frame of world heritage. Thanks. 169 1 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: David Northrop. 2 MR. DAVID NORTHROP: David Northrop, 3 Boston College. In continuing some of the 4 direction of comments this morning in terms of 5 finding slightly larger categories in which to 6 place these, I was thinking about the contested 7 category into which art can easily fall. 8 Contested at one level because what's good 9 enough to be called art is a very subjective 10 term; but also, the different aesthetics that 11 inspires art, the production of art in different 12 societies also produces sometimes sharper 13 contentious boundaries; and I was wondering if 14 one broadened the category to take a page from 15 the anthropologies, whom I know artists are 16 reading, to talk about material culture more 17 generally that one gets away from one of these 18 problems and aesthetics and one can begin to 19 talk about these things in a comparative way, 20 which there is an existing literature. 21 And it struck me that religion also, 22 as Roger was suggesting, can be contested when 23 one talks about particular religions and 24 religious traditions; and although I agree with 170 1 him, he can get around this, it still brings up 2 issues but if one broadens the category to talk 3 about spirituality, again, one can distinguish 4 that from institutionalized religions and one 5 can begin to talk about something that is quite 6 universal in human experience and, again, from 7 the anthropological literature find the language 8 in which to talk about this in ways that do 9 embrace it. 10 Since we got spirituality, I might 11 just as well add, of course, then sexuality 12 comes in as sort of a nice component of the 13 physical side of spirituality and one can talk 14 about gender as well and in a context that, 15 perhaps, is easier to frame in some ways because 16 one has taken a large picture and asked large 17 questions about it. 18 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Professor Adapa. 19 MS. SATYANARAYANA ADAPA: I'm 20 Satyanarayana Adapa from Hydropa, India. My 21 comments relate to the presentations of Anne 22 Chao and Lindenfeld and Beck. The rule of ideas 23 in changing the consciousness of the people in 24 the third world countries like India, China, and 171 1 other southeastern countries is significant. On 2 the one hand, we have the impact of the best 3 ideas on belated -- (inaudible) -- as you talked 4 about; but I'm also wondering, is it necessary 5 to act to another degree that some of these 6 native intellectuals in these countries 7 have also -- (inaudible) -- from the -- 8 (inaudible) -- like, for instance, you're in the 9 same -- (inaudible) -- not so much intellectual 10 but intellectual who was referred by Marxism 11 but -- (inaudible) -- and incorporated these 12 western ideas into the local courtesies. 13 Thus, more -- (inaudible) -- in a 14 sense a person like -- (inaudible) -- was very 15 much influenced by the western ideas but for 16 Gandhi -- (inaudible) -- he was very much 17 located in these traditions so the tradition and 18 the modernity come in such a manner which, in 19 fact, have made for mobilizing -- (inaudible) -- 20 the main religion is perceived by the Asian 21 countries -- (inaudible) -- that the world 22 religion is understood in different ways in 23 South Asia, for instance, because for us -- 24 (inaudible) -- but the people literally are 172 1 oppressed. The lower artists -- (inaudible) -- 2 brought ideas that the Christianity taught were 3 very much part of the indigenous tradition 4 because they are very much familiar with this 5 concept of the quality, freedom, humanism; but 6 when these new ideas came from the past, they 7 didn't operate them and they -- (inaudible) -- 8 this religion. So then when the Christian -- 9 (inaudible) -- for instance, education, long 10 before the -- (inaudible) -- the project of 11 education as -- (inaudible) -- tradition is, in 12 fact, brought these ideas of enlightenment to 13 the people and the lower artists, those sections 14 which did not have access to the formal 15 education had really accepted this and then, in 16 fact, used this category for their own -- 17 (inaudible) -- and some of these ideas which 18 were delegated by this -- (inaudible) -- very 19 much became an important instrument in the 20 answer of these people and, in fact, also 21 offered them to -- (inaudible) -- and then -- 22 (inaudible). So as it was perceived by the 23 loyal artists as -- (inaudible) -- is a process 24 to which these communities appropriated certain 173 1 elements of the best of knowledge to build 2 a -- (inaudible) -- of equality of humanity, 3 liberalism, and so on. So that's what these 4 religions, these western religions -- 5 (inaudible). I would suggest that this should 6 be sealed and kind of fruitful cultural and -- 7 (inaudible) -- because there is still the 8 question of -- (inaudible) -- as if the religion 9 people are traditionally -- (inaudible) -- have 10 been appropriated by the -- (inaudible) -- 11 sections and used them as -- (inaudible). Thank 12 you. 13 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Jack Wills. 14 MR. JACK WILLS: Jack Wills. I'm 15 following on the last two comments and also 16 going back a little bit to -- (inaudible) -- 17 talks this morning. It seems to me in the China 18 field, we had a number of cases quite a while 19 ago now where we got quite away beyond response 20 and defensiveness in talking about the 21 interaction between Chinese and modern European 22 ideas. 23 Thomas Mesker, 30 years ago now, saw 24 the Chinese "response" to modern Democratic and 174 1 nation building ideas as seizing on these ideas 2 as fulfilling frustrated desires of confusion, 3 of a confusing idealism, if you will. So this 4 is way beyond defensiveness. Ben Schwarts 5 equally a long time ago, as you know, and took 6 power, showed that -- (inaudible) -- and others 7 were finding that Darwin and Huxley and all of 8 these guys, things that were really there that 9 Europeans hadn't noticed. 10 And here's fascinating very different 11 Indian cases. I'm not picking this up as I 12 start to read about 19th Century Islam 13 confronting with the westerners. That's because 14 I haven't met the right people yet. So it's 15 there and we can make this not one way, which it 16 seems to me sometimes you use the response for 17 it, but a genuine interchange and eliciting of 18 new possibilities in both directions. 19 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Adam? 20 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: Adam McKeown, 21 Columbia University. Thinking about this, the 22 idea of cultural analysis, and it seems so far 23 we've had two different kinds of models of what 24 cultural analysis might be, one is of the 175 1 cultural objects and ideas moving around, 2 impacting, adapting, being adopted, changing, 3 interacting this kind of model; and the other 4 one, I think, is what several of the papers in 5 the first panel and also Leslie Witz was 6 suggesting more on the lines of modern cultural 7 studies. Let's interrogate basic categories, 8 basic ways. We even generate knowledge in the 9 first place. And I'm also wondering if there 10 isn't, perhaps, a third way of going about it, 11 and it's looking at, for lack of a better word, 12 the emergence of global cultures, which is not 13 a -- it's a mix of kinds of norms, ideas that 14 spread around the world but also create the 15 fundamentals of sort of differences which are -- 16 I'm thinking of things like the group of 17 sociologists around John Meyer who talk about a 18 spread of norms of the nation state, the various 19 kinds of institutions, the way it even 20 replicated around the world and they replicate 21 and create precisely those units and containers 22 from once we start to talk about differences. 23 So it's a global culture but despite global 24 culture, that creates a difference between what 176 1 we have interactions and things impacting, and 2 so forth. 19th Century circulation of other 3 global cultures that create differences like 4 race, civilizational discourse, the 20th 5 Century, I think some lady is going to talk 6 about the culture developmentalism, which, 7 again, divides the world in all different kinds 8 of ways and different levels. And I'm thinking 9 Chris Bailey and Sandra's work about global 10 flows. Genealogists and -- (inaudible) -- which 11 is -- (inaudible). It's sort of a global 12 circulation of certain kinds of volumes which 13 at the same time help to build and reinforce 14 these separate empires and states and -- 15 (inaudible) -- and heritages. 16 So I'm wondering if this might in some 17 way to historicize these metahistorical cultural 18 analyses will also incorporate in these ideas of 19 the flow, because all of these kinds of things 20 are, I mean, not only -- (inaudible) -- but 21 these global cultures are emerging through 22 global interactions. 23 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Jack Owens. 24 MR. JACK OWENS: I'm Jack Owens from 177 1 Idaho State University, and I just want to make 2 a brief pitch for something that I, in fact, 3 studied, but I think is really pertinent to 4 world history and particularly to this session, 5 and that's cartography. I warned Ralph I was 6 going to bring this up, but cartography is a 7 very old form of art. I'm sure that we don't 8 have a lot that survives from the paleolithic or 9 near the paleolithic, but we do get back fairly 10 close to that, if not in that period, but it 11 involves all of the elements that we heard about 12 to pay attention to when you're doing formal 13 things. 14 It has lines. It has shapes. It uses 15 color and where composition, it's a tremendously 16 important aspect of this. Moreover, getting 17 into the first global or even before that, it 18 involves ways that people conceptualize the 19 world that they live in in spacial terms and in 20 some cases, this involved conceptualizing 21 religious ideas and conceptions, in some ways 22 conceptualizing economic or communications 23 issues. It's difficult to think of an issue 24 which people struggled to conceptualize in 178 1 photographic terms. And it's a very taxable 2 kind of art form to tie into world history. You 3 have to get students interested in the kind of 4 basic aesthetic values and forms of analysis 5 that we are talking about in terms of art. This 6 has been an almost made announcement. 7 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: In the back. 8 MR. DAVID CHRISTIAN: David Christian. 9 It always seemed to me they are close 10 overlapping categories and the lines often get 11 drawn too sharply and the categories I have in 12 mind are religious cosmology and science. Some 13 of the texts that hung up on whether confusion 14 is religion or not. That seems to me a question 15 that can be avoided if one is sensitive to that 16 overlapping territory. So I want to know how 17 this -- (inaudible) -- can get or have been 18 incorporated in work on religion and world 19 history. 20 MR. ROGER BECK: Roger Beck. I take 21 Peter's comment about religion as a term. What 22 I'm really meaning, of course, is any kind 23 of -- (inaudible) -- belief system and one of 24 the things -- the problem that I think in the 179 1 west we're looking at this whole question is, 2 did we make a separation between religion and 3 all of the rest of society, which is not made in 4 many other places of the world. People don't 5 think that religion is something out here that I 6 go to on Sunday morning and everything else I do 7 the rest of the week has nothing to do with that 8 religion. It is their cosmology. It's 9 everything. In fact, of course, you can make an 10 argument of 12th or 13th Century Europe, that 11 science was religion and cosmology and it's all 12 part of what the Catholic church termed -- 13 decided was the way the world worked. 14 So I think that when we're looking 15 at -- and I don't mean this -- I'm not talking 16 just about Christianity when I'm talking about 17 religion here. I'm not talking about 18 Christianisionaries when I talk about 19 Christianisionaries. Traders who we know out 20 from the Arabian peninsula -- (inaudible) -- and 21 other places. I'm meaning the Buddhist traders 22 and others who went out from Tibet and Northern 23 India and carried Buddhism all through Asia and 24 beyond. That's what I'm really looking at here. 180 1 If you can't separate this out and you 2 shouldn't, and no matter what you're looking at, 3 whether it's telecommunications or disease, 4 missionaries as doctors, as medicine people, and 5 so forth, or attitudes towards the environment 6 and native American views of animals and their 7 surroundings as opposed to Christian views of 8 animals and their surroundings, and so forth, I 9 think it all has to be integrated. Any time you 10 ask a question about any field you're dealing 11 with in world history, you have to say, what 12 kind of belief system was underneath all of this 13 and how did that integrate its work into 14 everything else that people were doing? 15 So, yes, I think cosmology science in 16 some societies, it's all one thing and, of 17 course, we're in this debate in the United 18 States now about which comes first? Science or 19 politics, I guess, and religion? 20 David Lindenfeld made -- I'll start 21 with David's latest one. I would totally agree 22 and I would add a few other things to the mix; 23 namely, technology. It seems to me that 24 religion very often is about trying to make life 181 1 better and to make sure that things work well 2 and have techniques in order to introduce that, 3 which is, I think, basically a technological 4 imperative or very similar to it. And in my own 5 thinking, and I really haven't had the courage 6 to say this in print yet, but it's my own 7 speculation that secularization may not be 8 exclusively -- (inaudible) -- but that one can 9 find patterns of moving towards the -- 10 (inaudible) -- emphasis in many other societies 11 at different times and in different contexts if 12 one looks closely. 13 So I think all of these -- you, of 14 course, raised the crucial questions about what 15 we need to be doing and we're not doing, but 16 there are certainly valid questions to be raised 17 and we can be thinking about them. 18 With respect to Peter Gran's two 19 comments, the first one on the art and why it's 20 amusing and why it's downgraded, I think there 21 is another reason that may just go beyond the 22 political; and that is, I think there is a kind 23 of a biased towards the written word in western 24 intellectual traditions that possibly goes back 182 1 to Plato; and if one thinks about the way 2 academics have tried to delineate the big 3 picture in things like western civilization 4 courses and programs, and so forth, those 5 things, I think, have attempted to get 6 prioritized for quite a long time so I think 7 there is a kind of underlying bias that puts art 8 and music often into a separate category. 9 And as far as the word religion is 10 concerned, you're absolutely right. In fact, I 11 had that very thought this morning as I was 12 listening to the paper on the production of 13 world history in different countries, wondering 14 whether the same isn't true for the term world 15 history, whether other academic cultures have it 16 and if they do, whether they mean put it all the 17 same thing by it, but I think the important 18 thing here is it raises the issue of 19 translation, which is central to any of these 20 intercultural discussions. 21 It has come up several times -- I 22 think Adam McKeown's comments about the 23 establishment of categories as prior to the 24 study of interactions really means that one runs 183 1 into this problem of translation wherever one 2 turns. And just one final comment with respect 3 to Professor Adapa's valuable comment. 4 Everything that he says I would certainly agree 5 with, but I would add one more thing: That 6 that wasn't the only way in which people in 7 India encountered Christianity. Another was in 8 the sense to have an increased consciousness of 9 Hinduism as a religion. So that if religion 10 wasn't there beforehand, it certainly was once 11 they have confronted Christian missionaries. 12 That's another type of response that one sees 13 going on simultaneously. 14 MS. KATHLEEN KIMBALL: Well, I would 15 just like to thank you all for the entertaining 16 ideas about art and clearly from maps to the 17 political aspects. It is true that fine and 18 traditional arts were separated at about the 19 time that conquest people took place and objects 20 that had a function and remained by traditional 21 cultures were seen as low status and objects 22 made by the rest were considered fine art and to 23 the extent that -- (inaudible). It was 24 considered to be valuable and became the subject 184 1 of consortia. These are sort of short arguments 2 in our criticism. I do find that when I work to 3 establish visual standards for the State of New 4 Hampshire or try to deal with school systems, 5 the teachers are mandated to have some 6 individual learning program for their students 7 and they have many who are special ed students, 8 and it is only the arts that allow for the 9 multiple intelligences and by bringing world art 10 in it is a way of marking world history the 11 access of American education. It's the one 12 thing that actually make their test scores. 13 While some schools are issued -- 14 (inaudible) -- and a way to provide the teachers 15 with truly important subjects to teach, some 16 free time to prepare for their courses, the 17 reality turns out to be that by introducing an 18 integrating art into the rest of the curriculum, 19 particularly history, math, and science, the 20 student scores go up so there is the beyond the 21 political and the class and the rest of it. 22 Some hope that world art will be increasingly 23 recognized. The question of aesthetics in 24 different cultures is a little one. Rubin, he's 185 1 an anthropologist who wrote a book called "Art 2 and Technology," and the question of cross 3 cultural aesthetics is quite a legitimate area 4 of inquiry. Aesthetics exists everywhere. I 5 mean, there are standards for excellence, 6 whether it is how to carve a -- (inaudible) -- 7 mask or how to paint with oils -- (inaudible). 8 I think within that culture, you are able to 9 articulate why one thing is more successful than 10 another, why it makes the criteria for a set of 11 excellence or does not. 12 The question of translation is also 13 one that got my attention because we seem to 14 focus on changing from one language to another 15 but I -- (inaudible). Is that considered 16 legitimate or not? I feel as if I am at the 17 risk of historizing as an infinite regress 18 experience, but I do perceive that the work you 19 are all doing is a kind of holographic fractal 20 that I can get literally in my mind's eye from 21 any one person's work to any other person's work 22 because it is so connected. You are like a 23 globe, center of which is world history, and 24 each radius from that center to the edge is the 186 1 same distance and yet, your lack of -- 2 (inaudible) -- without all of these spokes is 3 immaterial. It simply can't go around. I would 4 love the idea of use of maps and I would add to 5 it that what's on top in the map makes a big 6 difference. Is it east or south or whatever? 7 And just small things like that can make a huge 8 difference in how people perceive hierarchies 9 and what's important and how it's presented. 10 So the history of, hey, to go far 11 afield of inquiry and it brings us to ways of 12 mapping that are beyond the cognitive mapping of 13 anthropologies that have also been referenced. 14 Beyond -- (inaudible) -- and to something that 15 relates to a -- (inaudible) -- and the kind 16 of -- (inaudible) -- and a piece that's no -- 17 (inaudible) -- manilla folder can tell you 18 whether or not there is land or whether you can 19 find it 500 miles away, just about how its 20 threads are woven together in the scholar's 21 eyes, if you've ever seen them, but it's the 22 kind of mapping so now we bring that all the way 23 around and if we end up in Australia and look at 24 the original dot paintings, which are maps of 187 1 journeys that people take, and now the average 2 Australian says, "well, I would like to use 3 those new acrylic paints that are out there," 4 is it still authentic? If that person is 5 educated in Paris and now living in South Africa 6 and wants to exhibit in LA, how do you describe 7 this person in your global story? There is, in 8 fact, a journal called Third Text, which 9 emphasizes contemporary arts and the role of 10 world experience in the generation of 11 contemporary arts. You might find that helpful 12 as well. I did feel at the top so I'm going to 13 pass the microphone. Thank you. 14 MS. ANNE CHAO: To respond to Professor 15 Lay and Professor Adapa, Professor Wills on the 16 interactions of local and global, it is a big 17 struggle with the intellectual field of 18 constantly debating whether we should still 19 use paradigm western impacts on the response, 20 get rid of that, use local adaptation -- 21 (inaudible) -- of foreign ideas to enhance the 22 local agency. I think these are all pretty 23 confusing things and I'm not really sure how 24 fruitful it is to -- (inaudible) -- and that I 188 1 think the answer lies in world history but I'm 2 just giving you an illustration of three 3 instances of how confusing this is. The 4 dissertation topic is the guy who found the 5 Chinese Communist party. Even though he was 6 very -- (inaudible) -- French revolutionary also 7 beyond course adapted to Marxist ideas of 8 societal change, ultimately when you organize 9 the party, he writes in a very confusing -- 10 (inaudible) -- way so we can argue there is an 11 indigenous element to his -- (inaudible) -- of 12 foreign ideas. 13 The other is his partner in crime in 14 changing the way the Chinese language is 15 written. (Inaudible). Blocked off many, many 16 years of Chinese history but did not have -- 17 (inaudible). And also scandalized the field of 18 Chinese history and opponents of these 19 revolutionary intellectuals. They also study 20 the -- (inaudible). And they came and claimed 21 there is nothing but Chinese. There is a 22 Chinese essence that these intellectuals are 23 destroying. Again, they are copying western 24 ideas to add and seek their own beliefs so that 189 1 it is confusing enough for us not -- I really 2 think it's -- (inaudible) -- in similar cases in 3 other countries around the world, in world 4 historical studies of these movements, then we 5 can really, perhaps, distinguish better how 6 foreign ideas, specific tests as Marks' and -- 7 (inaudible) -- and really influenced different 8 societies, and maybe we shouldn't go beyond 9 that. 10 But in addition, I just want to 11 respond to Heather, that I think this gender and 12 studying women's history is extremely important 13 to the study of world history. Even its 14 institution of women's Christian -- 15 (inaudible) -- usually has had an important 16 impact in Chinese society and Japanese society 17 around the 1920s and 1930s and these things have 18 never been studied, to my knowledge. Thank you. 19 MR. LESLIE WITZ: Thank you. The 20 specific question was around from looking at the 21 frame of world heritage. Well, I suppose it's 22 one of the many fields that I look at. I'm 23 very, very history in the public domain. 24 Museums, heritage, et cetera, et cetera; but the 190 1 reason I'm doing that is to really look at the 2 power and the politics of knowledge, production 3 in general. And that allows me to look to the 4 intersections between the academy and the public 5 and it's not just a one-way flow and that for me 6 is very important. I mean, the intervention by 7 Peter about the creation of those ethnical -- 8 (inaudible) -- are absolutely crucial. The 9 construction of gender, which you mentioned in 10 those, are absolutely crucial in looking at the 11 politics of the production of knowledge for me 12 and I'm always reminded -- I mean, Michelle's 13 book, I don't know if anybody's seen it, the 14 last book, if there is ever icon globalization, 15 it's the dinosaur. And he tracks that 16 throughout from the invention in the 19th 17 Century into a category that moves from the 18 public into the academy. 19 The dinosaur, as he claims, hasn't got 20 any scientific basis and it's created and now is 21 used again and again as a category with some 22 supposedly scientific -- (inaudible). So there 23 is no essential dinosaur in some ways. It has 24 the kind of shape and image the dinosaur shifts 191 1 in the museum and it really is a global icon, I 2 think. I mean, specifically I'm also interested 3 in different genders of knowledge, but I'm also, 4 I suppose, interested in world heritage in 5 particular and interested in the politics of 6 what happens when -- (inaudible) -- that is 7 called essentially quite local -- (inaudible) -- 8 global and what the meanings do and how it is 9 altered in the politics around that is for me 10 very important. So and to historize, that I 11 agree. That's lack of formulation of how those 12 divisions actually emerge. The emergence of 13 global cultures and to track how those -- I 14 don't know what you call them. Those sorts of 15 compartments in some way emerge with absolutely 16 crucial to historizing that. 17 MR. RALPH CROIZIER: Could I just add 18 one more thing? This is Ralph Croizier. More 19 seriously, Jack Owens, of course cartography 20 belongs -- David Northrop touched somewhat on 21 the same point when he referred to material 22 culture, and I'm quite aware that in my 23 presentation here and somewhat in my written 24 presentation, too, after made me edit out so 192 1 much of it, that it does tend towards art 2 history and not much on broader individuality, 3 but I am aware of culture studies, of visual 4 studies, et cetera, and those other dimensions. 5 I have some reservations about the extent to 6 which those fields are presented and have theory 7 driven rather than research but that's sort of a 8 historian's reaction and an old historian's 9 reaction. 10 Peter Graham raised something that 11 also fills me with sadness and nostalgia. The 12 decline of intellectual history in American 13 Academia but more broadly, and this touches on 14 all of our culture of complaint here, about what 15 he called the fall of the humanities. I agree, 16 it's a big and complicated issue trying to 17 explain this. The only thing I would say is to 18 some extent, the humanists deserve what they got 19 because of the eclecticism and the Eurocentrism 20 so strongly engrained in so much of the 21 humanities, that, perhaps, we had to have the 22 fall of that kind of humanities to have the rise 23 of world history. Social scientists in general 24 have been more ready allies. That's all I have 193 1 to say. 2 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Okay. That 3 brings us to David Lindenfeld. 4 MR. DAVID LINDENFELD: I learned a 5 great deal about gender in my topic of the 6 digenous encounters with Christian missionaries 7 mostly from anthropologists, mostly from people 8 who are going out there doing field work and 9 discovering in Africa, for example, lo and 10 behold, in many cases, that even though the 11 missionaries directed their attention to men, 12 more women than men converted. In many cases, 13 mostly women. 14 So that I think by doing what I 15 suggested, bringing anthropology into the 16 conversation, will be bringing vendors in as 17 well. 18 MR. DAVID LINDENFELD: Can I make one 19 comment? 20 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Please. 21 MR. DAVID LINDENFELD: I want to come 22 back to Peter's comment again, too, because at 23 the beginning of the '70s and '80s, of course 24 there was a conscious war against the 194 1 humanities, political war, which is still being 2 carried on to codify and to test what was 3 culture and what should be taught and what 4 shouldn't be taught in the academy and I had 5 schools and across the board and I think that's 6 had a significant effect on -- we may be 7 teaching some of these things but you're not 8 going to be tested on that so there is no use in 9 what you're going to be tested on, is what we 10 think are the 25 most important things to know 11 about world history or American history or 12 whatever, and that's been a broad, well-financed 13 campaign against the humanities in many ways. 14 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Deborah? 15 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Just more of a 16 resource than anything else. Deborah Johnston, 17 Lexington, here in Massachusetts. Just a 18 resource. I wanted to echo what Kate was saying 19 as well as what Jack was advocating in terms of 20 cartography. There is a wonderful resource, 21 Peter Wiltfield wrote a book, "Edge of the 22 World." It's ten centuries of maps, beautiful 23 coffee table type book but even better, we 24 received a CD Rom based on that book and it 195 1 highlights just several maps, actually dissects 2 them, a wonderful teaching tool that's exactly 3 what so many of you were advocating that we can 4 do with our classrooms. 5 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Peter? 6 MR. PETER ADEBAYO: I want to pick up 7 on -- this conference is a little unusual in 8 that we don't have race classes and gender sort 9 of both -- (inaudible) -- and we do other 10 things. I want to make a comment about this not 11 of a judgmental source but not a scientific 12 source. I think that was implied in the earlier 13 discussion and I think this should be something 14 to be carried on in the future. This obviously 15 is just one straight comment. I believe the 16 people that were promoting race studies never 17 really got in this company beyond the idea of 18 the United States racial experiences, the one 19 which you judge others by. 20 And I believe that the class and 21 the -- (inaudible) -- tradition in western 22 countries also led to the idea that only western 23 people have classroom information of any 24 important significance, and so forth, race kinds 196 1 of reasons. Everything else was kind of -- 2 (inaudible). And I think that happened in 3 gender but not gender in world history. And 4 here's where I might have a different 5 perception, I think, than some of you. I think 6 gender was part of sort of the ideology of 7 difference, which became important in the '80s 8 when women's history, a descriptive field lost 9 status and -- (inaudible) -- really doesn't help 10 for history as much as it does on the fields 11 because we're looking for commonalities and 12 generalizations and broad points to make and we 13 really don't have time for too much difference 14 if we're going to serve -- sort of communicate 15 some kind of either narrative or unified start 16 line so we are more interested probably in 17 women's history and that kind of descriptive 18 material than we are in the categories which 19 sort of produce incomprehensibility; that is, we 20 are not the home of posts modernism that say 21 lots of air studies programs are. 22 I do hope, however, that in 23 reassessing a position of so-called soft 24 humanities, I do think you can make the claim 197 1 from what you said today that you are doing what 2 social historians are doing but they are not 3 doing. In other words, you have material and 4 ideas which are powerful enough to talk about 5 all humanity. And it's not obvious, given the 6 choice that social historians made, that they 7 live up to what they say they wanted to do. So 8 in hard scientific terms, I think you can sort 9 of say, you deserve an equal place from the 10 point of view of evidence or from the point of 11 view of outcome of potential results. 12 However, the point you made earlier 13 about the elitism, this is something which, of 14 course, stands in the way. 15 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: We are going to 16 have one final question. This is Anthony Penna. 17 MR. ANTHONY PENNA: Anthony Penna, 18 Northeastern University. When we talk about 19 gender, don't forget that we need to have a 20 discussion about the changing role of men in 21 global societies. The little bit that I know 22 about this in American environmental history is 23 that during rather extensive periods during the 24 19th Century, where the frontier closed, men 198 1 were perceived as the weaker gender and that 2 some effort needed to be made to reintroduce 3 masculinity into the lives of these men. They 4 were no longer cowboys. They were no longer out 5 on the range. They were now in cities and 6 working in factories. I think the same 7 phenomenon probably happens around the globe as 8 boarder -- (inaudible) -- become more market 9 oriented economies. 10 Regarding religion, the interesting 11 thing about the second great awakening in which 12 the countries evangelized in the early decades 13 of the 19th Century is that most of the 14 evangelists -- the one that I know most 15 particularly is William Granson Finney, actually 16 evangelized women. And women then played a very 17 important role in getting their men to do such 18 things as stop drinking, gambling, crowsing, 19 fighting, and engaging in random acts of 20 violence. So I think this field of gender 21 studies is one that has been tuned thoroughly in 22 most academies as women studies and as an 23 appropriate role for men as well. 24 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Any final 199 1 comments? 2 FROM THE AUDIENCE: I was expecting you 3 to get two more words into the record here. 4 Architectural history and built environment. 5 Get that? 6 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: I will make my 7 closing documents. Thank you for that 8 invitation. I just wanted to talk a little bit 9 about my own missionary work, working as an 10 world historian among art historians, and 11 particularly among the architectural historians. 12 One thing that I have found -- I've found a few 13 partners to work with with whom I'm having a 14 very fruitful interaction but on the whole, I 15 find that we are -- we, world historians, and 16 the world is met with a kind of skepticism that 17 I think we met with our fellow historians maybe 18 a generation or so ago. 19 What I have found, however, is that 20 there is a subdiscipline in the world of -- 21 (inaudible) -- environment, which is called the 22 study of vernacular architecture and it has had, 23 too, established itself really quite separately 24 from the art and architectural historians. And 200 1 they are a tremendous resource, actually, for 2 all of you in terms of field of research. They 3 have an enormous egression of field research. 4 And in terms of methodology, because they are 5 instinctively interdisciplinary, there is a 6 terrific resource, which unfortunately you 7 cannot get, except in the reference room in the 8 art library, it's called "The Encyclopedia of 9 Vernacular Architecture of the World," and it's 10 a three-volume resource, $1,000 per volume when 11 it was actually for sale, but it's now out of 12 print and it never circulates. Very 13 frustrating. 14 The editor is Paul Oliver, but it is 15 really quite a remarkable resource in terms of 16 bringing a lot of field resources -- field 17 research from a lot of different practitioners 18 ranging from anthropologists and archaeologists 19 to historians to people working in the mining 20 industry in the highlands of New Guinea to 21 missionaries. Many different professionals 22 contributed to this. Interestingly, it is a 23 purely A historical resource and that opens up 24 an opportunity for us to use this incredible 201 1 egression of field research and to historize it. 2 So anyway, I think that we, as historians, will 3 find many willing partners for collaboration 4 among the vernacular architects. Okay. Final 5 words? 6 (No response) 7 MR. H. PARKER JAMES: Okay. Thank you 8 all. We will reconvene in 20 minutes for the 9 final panel of the day, which is regions and 10 place in world history. 11 (Short recess) 12 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Are we all ready to 13 begin? Can you all hear me? I just want to 14 make sure my voice is carrying, and it is 15 carrying. Very good. So welcome to our four 16 o'clock session. We have a few people coming, 17 strolling in. We will stick to the five-minute 18 limit. I will, when you have about 30 seconds, 19 wave "hello" to you. And then we will, of 20 course, have our discussion. 21 We want to, of course, just as a 22 reminder, identify ourselves and speak slowly. 23 I really have never spoken this slowly, but I'm 24 endeavoring to do so, so we all speak slowly for 202 1 this wonderful woman here to do her work. Let's 2 give her a round of applause. It's a great 3 thing she's doing for us. 4 Today really in this session we're 5 talking about world history from around the 6 world, but also by looking at different parts of 7 the world in the way different parts of the 8 world looks at the world. If you can figure 9 that one out, but we really are not only having 10 a global view presented but what the views from 11 around the globe are as well. 12 Our first speaker is not here. Jerome 13 Teelucksingh is not here of the West Indies. I 14 did practice his name. However, he's not here 15 now so we'll move on. 16 Zhang Weiwei from Nankai University in 17 China will speak to us first. 18 MR. ZHANG WEIWEI: First of all, let me 19 thank you, Professor Manning, for bringing me 20 here. It's a very good chance for me to be here 21 to talk to you. My question is China's function 22 in global history. That's not because I'm 23 Chinese. I try to put China's degree into the 24 context of global -- (inaudible) -- and try to 203 1 seek global history in the Chinese way or 2 sometimes not Chinese when I talk about global 3 history. I try to be a global man. Something 4 like that. Now, first, I will try to take no 5 subject approach to global history. This is my 6 part because China's history has been synergic 7 for many years and in China, it has been -- 8 (inaudible). But I want to take note to the 9 second approach to global history. That's 10 something different from that. It is important 11 to take no -- (inaudible) -- approach in global 12 history. Global history in working, in teaching 13 and researching in the Chinese first century 14 based on the other writings or work history and 15 national history written in the 19th and 20th 16 Centuries. 17 I think it's time for us to take 18 different perspectives to both global history 19 and Chinese history. What I mean by global 20 history, it doesn't mean -- (inaudible). I just 21 want to get aware of the centuries of Asian 22 centuries and any other centuries. So that's 23 global corporation of international scholars so 24 that we can share our worlds. I'm not going to 204 1 say that we all have the same perspective, but 2 we just want to share our perspectives to the 3 global history and what the function of China in 4 global history is. And that's my perspective. 5 What is China's in global history? This has 6 been a question I often been asked when I give 7 lectures at my university and other places. My 8 students ask me, why China has a very great 9 influence on war history in the Asian and 10 medieval times? Why China has such less 11 influence in modern world history? These kinds 12 of questions I've often been asked because this 13 is why I try to ask this question to you because 14 you are special in work history and some of you 15 specialize in Chinese history as well. 16 So I think China's function in global 17 history needs to be -- (inaudible) -- for other 18 nations in global history so we can also ask the 19 question, what is the British function in global 20 history or what is the American or U.S.A. 21 function in global history and other countries? 22 That is only a case study who writes the 23 standards for national history and global 24 perspectives. That's what I wanted to do. So 205 1 this is why I'm here for international 2 collaboration to do this, because I think 3 this is one of the priorities of war -- 4 (inaudible) -- is to organize an international 5 collaboration project on Chinese history and 6 global history because Chinese history has been 7 interdependent and contingent influence by 8 original of global history. This is why Chinese 9 should be and should study in global history so 10 I can license scholars, international scholars, 11 to draw precaution and also you might teach 12 Chinese scholars that are involved in this kind 13 of work because in China, Chinese history and 14 world history and foreign history is clearly 15 wildly separated from -- (inaudible). This is 16 why I try to put both of these issues in this 17 conference. I thank you for letting me be here. 18 Thank you. 19 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Thank you very 20 much. Next we will have Ali Caksu speak to us. 21 MR. ALI CAKSU: In my speech, I will 22 talk about the need for understanding some 23 concepts and students without, which is history 24 cannot be understood. I suggest that this 206 1 concept and the institution they gave birth have 2 provided this length and continuity of 3 civilization. One of them is, we might call it, 4 the philanthropic foundation. The trust deeds 5 provide vast material on plethora of subjects. 6 To cite an example through the stipulations and 7 information in the trust deeds, it is possible 8 to trace the developments, for example, in the 9 history of science and education in the Islamic 10 world. 11 For instance, some stipulation on 12 methods provide significant information on 13 heating of transmitted rational sciences, which 14 then include logic, mathematics, as reasons to 15 mean medicine. And another interesting example 16 is development of public libraries. 17 The second institution I have selected 18 is the most in business partnerships and 19 practices. Some scholars have pointed out the 20 parallelism interaction or influence between the 21 European and Islamic cultures with respect to 22 business partnerships. Yet, certainly there is 23 a need for further and more extensive research. 24 The third issue I would like to 207 1 mention is the Islamic understanding of 2 religious and cultural pluralism, which gains 3 more significance -- (inaudible) -- when the 4 word is in search, in dire need of a peaceful 5 coexistence, rather than the reinvention of 6 crusades against the -- (inaudible). The -- 7 (inaudible) -- of these key terms is to be a 8 prerequisite for further studies on social and 9 cultural topics like the so-called optimum -- 10 (inaudible) -- as well as many affects of the 11 present date Islamic -- (inaudible) -- and 12 culture. 13 Finally, I would like to mention 14 something which is not in my paper and it is the 15 importance of the optimum archives. We have 16 many -- (inaudible) -- from all over the world 17 studying but many of them studying more on 18 conventional state and the latest problems in 19 Turkey is that archives are usually seen for the 20 historians only. So people from other fields of 21 knowledge will not usually deal with archived 22 material, although they will definitely be 23 provided rich copies for studying, including for 24 all historians, for example. For example, I'm 208 1 interested in the history of IDS; and if we take 2 the idea of the state and go through the 3 archives of material, we can trace its 4 appearance, developments and its similarities in 5 some other -- (inaudible) -- concepts. For 6 example, in the beginning, we have a practical 7 idea of state but later it becomes a 8 metaphysical state. When one reads them, one 9 thinks that it is very much like a -- 10 (inaudible) -- state. 11 So as this example shows, the archives 12 can provide that and can provide rich material 13 for many copies. That's all. 14 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Thank you, Ali. 15 From the University of Istanbul, Potukuchi 16 Swarnalatha is from the Dhirubhai Ambani 17 International School of India, and she will 18 speak to us momentarily. Thank you. Go ahead. 19 MS. POTUKUCHI SWARNALATHA: I would 20 like to extend my thanks to the organization of 21 the committee to giving me an opportunity to 22 share some of the ideas with which I'm 23 struggling a lot in my daily classroom situation 24 for the past four years as a teacher of the 209 1 second school, which I had taken up recently. I 2 started material as a university teacher. After 3 teaching them for six years and post graduation, 4 then I started taking the profession at the 5 secondary. They started my journey into the 6 world history, how to bring the concept of the 7 world history and its connections to the daily 8 classroom situation from the middle school 9 onwards. And, therefore, there is the title for 10 my work, "Enveloping Eurasia into World 11 History." 12 At the same time, I'm not wishing for 13 an agenda of world history, which is being 14 dominated by the major ideologies. Here what I 15 would like to submit to the forum is that in 16 understanding the many paradoxes that surrenders 17 the world history research is that while the 18 reason to design a center on -- (inaudible) -- 19 and matters on declarating knowledge, most 20 analytical works, important Indians, such as 21 the -- (inaudible) -- in the understanding of 22 the historical continuum. 23 While these reasons have been spaced 24 out and given due recognition in the 20th 210 1 Century history, which is more evident coming 2 from the British National Curriculum, as well as 3 other state curriculums coming from different 4 parts of the world, the similar thing had not 5 been given due emphasis across the time span, 6 more significantly in the case of the middle 7 ages. Therefore, this particular research under 8 which I would like to put forth to the forum is 9 that there is a necessity for us to look into 10 the way the world history has been approached, 11 as well as accepted by the audience, the 12 so-called audience, which is the important thing 13 which we need to look out at this particular 14 point in time. 15 For example, to whose purpose are we 16 taking care of this world history at this 17 particular juncture? The global history and the 18 context of the globalization, as well as global 19 network society. So to whom we are categoring 20 or channelizing our efforts towards the 21 understanding of the world history? Therefore, 22 we need to see the necessity of understanding 23 certain ADS which otherwise had played a very 24 significant role in the history of the world, as 211 1 well as the history of the domination. For 2 example, when the rise of the British Empire or 3 when we consider the problems associated with 4 the first World War, the regions that come to 5 our minds are India as the last Middle East. 6 These are problems which we do come across in 7 every day understanding of the conflict which we 8 are witnessing today and also in understanding 9 the idea of domination, which we equally have 10 associated with the organization and, therefore, 11 follows the decolonization. 12 So if we consider this as important 13 topic areas, therefore, we need to transmark to 14 the earlier -- (inaudible) -- where these 15 reasons were delegated to the background in what 16 we get an understanding of the world history 17 where I come across with important sciences like 18 the issue of world history or New York State 19 curriculum or the Kennedy curriculum. In fact, 20 I had an opportunity to work with different 21 national curriculums in order to frame a 22 curriculum to suit the requirements of my school 23 at the national level, especially for the medium 24 school. It was in the context of where to place 212 1 India, how to place India. Therefore, I went 2 through these Websites and was trying to see the 3 national curriculum frameworks and the lesson 4 plans and, therefore, it is impossible for me to 5 get into. And the other thing is that the 6 question that comes out at this particular point 7 in time is the reverse. For example, the 8 students, as well as the parents and the public, 9 are also expressing their concerns. Why do we 10 have to go about understanding the 20th Century 11 world issues without having a proper 12 understanding of the region in which we have 13 located? 14 So the concerns are very evident and, 15 in fact, emerge as contested -- (inaudible) -- 16 in the world history and especially this is a 17 thing that we at the school level and at the 18 international level are trying to emphasize it 19 more and more in order to bring about -- 20 (inaudible) -- off the region into the world 21 history at the particular situation now. And, 22 therefore, in my proposal, which is there with 23 you all, and I highlighted two, three areas 24 where this is being projected very obviously or 213 1 explicitly, especially the centuries from the 2 15th, 16th Centuries and, in fact, I have 3 the -- (inaudible) -- Internet world history 4 website book where you can see the eight 5 centuries are being left out as far as India is 6 concerned. As far as the Middle East is 7 concerned, you can see the concerns of only 8 the history of the Middle East or the -- 9 (inaudible) -- with the idea of anti-semitism 10 from 1875. What was happening to these regions? 11 Are we going to place these regions in the 12 context of expansion and development? Is it 13 necessary for us to look at this area only from 14 the point of view of Concord and, therefore, 15 cooperate into the westernization, or is there a 16 space for us to understand these regions into 17 the context of a global connection and, 18 therefore, look for histories of happiness? 19 And for this only I'm saying that I 20 stated in my proposal also is the first 21 proposal, is that we need to work out, 22 systemically get ahold of the existing 23 textbooks, at least as a pilot project, and look 24 into the content as the -- (inaudible) -- 214 1 framework that had been adapted in these 2 textbooks and that sets the tone for further 3 connections and connectivity in world history. 4 Thank you. 5 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Thank you. One 6 less panelist so I'm sharing a few minutes here 7 and there. John Wills from the University of 8 Southern California. 9 MR. JACK WILLS: Okay. I want to thank 10 all of the organizers and all of the people who 11 have done so much work for us. It's been a 12 splendid occasion. I have several people still 13 spotted in who I haven't gotten to, who I need 14 to bug about bibliography or questions of one 15 kind or another. I'm not going to go over the 16 little case study of how to put one region into 17 global history, which I gave you in my printed 18 paper. The quiz will be available with your 19 coffee in the morning. 20 Rather, I want to make just a couple 21 of comments about some themes, some connecting 22 themes that seem, including one that is mine, 23 that impress me very much, as I had been 24 listening to today. I've been especially 215 1 impressed by the number of the presentations and 2 the power of the presentations that involve 3 ecological change and also, those that involve 4 migration. I don't know if I see Pat Manning's 5 fine hand in the latter. He says he has nothing 6 to do with it. But the cops are outside waiting 7 for you, Pat. So I don't know but these are 8 themes that we could start to get to David 9 Christian's big advocacy for us. We can start 10 these in the paleolithic. 11 As soon as man discovers fire, you are 12 on God's -- (inaudible). You get people start 13 burning things and, David, is it your book of 14 Australia that the arrival of man in Australia's 15 blame for starting some fires and changing 16 things? Anyway, it's out there. So as soon as 17 man discovers fire, he starts changing things by 18 burning things. So that ecology can be taken 19 back to the paleolithic. The whole question of 20 migration obviously can be so and I think in 21 that long continuity, the pace of change and the 22 magnitude of change in the 20th Century becomes 23 much more dramatically apparent and thus, the 24 relevance of our long view, including the 216 1 paleolithic to our contemporary concerns, to 2 policy concerns, is something that we ought to 3 pretty much embrace. We ought to say yes, God 4 damn it. We're relevant and we've been saying 5 this, I think, in several registers through the 6 day. Then there is the question that has been 7 raised this morning by Professor Nolte, and I 8 think implicitly by several others, of violence 9 and I would like to bring with it the question 10 of organized or monopolized violence, the 11 question of the various natures of states and 12 the interaction between the two. 13 We desperately miss John Richards on 14 this, and I urge you to read his paper. It's a 15 lot of literature. I particularly am a fan of 16 Michael -- (inaudible) -- of social power as a 17 big picture that goes back to urbanization and 18 the confining of society within borders, and so 19 on, at a very early stage. 20 Are we today after a peak of statism, 21 if you will, losing control? Are we losing 22 control in particularly dangerous ways because 23 of some of the contingent effects of this period 24 of maximum statism, such as all of those guns 217 1 left over from the Cold War in stale state areas 2 around the world? And throughout this, state 3 migration, ecology, everything we have to keep 4 on the table in some fashion, the roles of 5 cultural idiosyncrasy. I don't think we can do 6 it globally head on. I don't think that there 7 is a master structural key for interpreting the 8 varieties of human culture and very much the 9 first step is to map out the varieties that we 10 have available in the world, in world past and 11 present and the role of religion that several 12 people have highlighted, whatever religion 13 means, however the category of religion varies 14 in relation to different societies very much has 15 to be kept on the table. But how do we do 16 religion? How do we understand -- (inaudible)? 17 How do we talk about people who say, "look, if 18 you really understood what I was saying, you 19 would convert." 20 This is what every really dedicated 21 conservative person will say to you. Don't talk 22 to me as an outsider. If you really understood 23 the truth of what I was saying, if you really 24 understood the import of what I was saying, you 218 1 would be -- (inaudible). There is no other 2 answer. So how do we bridge that kind of gap? 3 I don't know. But I think the one way of 4 starting to do it is to think of our religious 5 expression. I mean, this is a conversation I 6 had with several of you this morning of our 7 religious expressions of various kinds as 8 metaphoric. That's not going to satisfy that 9 Muslim. That's not going to satisfy your 10 fundamentalists. Christian neighbor, that's not 11 going to satisfy a -- (inaudible) -- but can I 12 argue in favor of it? There is a lot of 13 metaphor theory out there which is grounded in 14 our growing knowledge of the embodiment of our 15 consciousness. 16 Let me just end by mentioning a couple 17 of names of authors, one of which, thank you 18 very much for juggling my memory this morning, 19 is George Lakoff, L A K O F F. Very 20 distinguished linguist and philosopher at 21 Berkeley. A committee scientist who I think 22 nobody ever heard of, who has some very 23 interesting things about early man going back to 24 even beyond the paleolithic named Bradubogban, 219 1 B R A D U B O G B A N, and -- (inaudible). This 2 guy is Tulane. He's not the same place. I hope 3 he survived the disaster recently. I don't 4 know. Finally, a book that comes out of a set 5 of interviews done for -- (inaudible) -- Dutch 6 television by a guy named Winzer, W I N Z E R, 7 and I hope I have the title right. "A Glorious 8 Accident," interviews with Denit, Sacks, Steven 9 Toolman. Don't bother with the names. These 10 are representative names and these are out 11 there. 12 There is a set of tapes out there you 13 can buy of these entities. I cannot tell you 14 right now where to buy it. If you Google on it, 15 you can probably find it, and this is very 16 exciting stuff and I think it really deeply 17 interacts with what we have to do as we try to 18 explain naturalized build bridges and the study 19 of deep, deep cultural variation. Thank you 20 very much. 21 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Thank you very 22 much. Juhani Koponen from the University of 23 Helsinki. 24 MR. JUHANI KOPONEN: So let's see. 220 1 Okay. So to watch the evening -- 2 (inaudible) -- it has now become my turn to 3 introduce my baby. I am an historian by 4 training. I'm an historian by inclination, but 5 I work in development studies and I think I know 6 something about frustrations of modern -- 7 (inaudible). And I will now introduce, and 8 which is a very simple argument, I'm going to 9 make a plea for the introduction and integration 10 of development into herbal but also, perhaps, 11 even more, I'm going to make a plea for the 12 introduction and integration of history to 13 something which I think is long overdue. And in 14 this endeavor, I ask for your assistance and 15 support. 16 We have a huge discussion in 17 developmental studies. What is development? 18 And notions and ideas are myriad. Is it public 19 reduction? Whatever it is. I think it's -- 20 (inaudible) -- lots of meetings with different 21 definitions. And I think it's powerful. It 22 comes from the fact that it is such a -- 23 (inaudible). My regard is as one of those -- 24 (inaudible) -- men of history you remember. 221 1 Famous argument that although it is interest 2 which keeps people going, why they have a major 3 role in history, they would like to switch men, 4 they determined -- (inaudible) -- which action 5 is pushed by -- (inaudible). I argue that the 6 test is a fairly clearly meaning. If you look 7 at the way this composed structure, the way it 8 functions, I think it's very different to keep 9 it separate from notions like change or 10 approach. It is something else. 11 There are a lot of -- what I'm talking 12 now basically consists of three different 13 dimensions. If it's an intervention concept, if 14 it's -- (inaudible) -- concept and if it's a -- 15 (inaudible) -- concept. 16 First of all, we have an idea. What 17 is the -- (inaudible)? Then we believe that 18 some sort of concierge -- (inaudible) -- somehow 19 influence something that takes us towards or 20 even up to global. So this is my notion of -- 21 (inaudible) -- and I'm asking, when did this 22 thing start? Development studies is a very, 23 very historical subject and people tend to think 24 that this is something pushed into the second 222 1 World War. Some people think this is too much 2 famous speech where he said that the old -- 3 (inaudible). America also needs your help. 4 (Inaudible). Colonial historians and I myself, 5 colonial historians have long known that this is 6 not the case, that development -- (inaudible). 7 It is our agreement here as well. People -- 8 (inaudible). Hooper will argue it was a fairly 9 recent phenomenon in -- (inaudible). I myself 10 argued that. Actually, it was much earlier that 11 they can be considered both as an -- 12 (inaudible) -- condition and as an -- 13 (inaudible) -- consequence of something. 14 The allotment is part and parcel of -- 15 (inaudible) -- and my history is largely -- 16 (inaudible). And my argument would be that it 17 is not one starting point. There are many 18 starting points. There is not one leading -- 19 (inaudible). 20 One way to approach is to look at 21 historical uses of this notion, which I see 22 provides continuity, provides richness across 23 different times and spaces. And this idea post 24 colonial phenomenon, I don't think it's entirely 223 1 described because during that time, the 2 allotment has had different functions as it had 3 during colonial. During that time, the 4 allotment has been used as an underpinning of 5 the whole world order. It has guided the way we 6 have, the west, have organizing our relations 7 with the rest. Much of it has happened under 8 the banner of the development. And I see this 9 as a basis for what I call allotment -- 10 (inaudible). The hope of this machinery of 11 industry, of institutions, mental and material 12 structure that have long around had this notion 13 of what I call development. Okay. Let me see. 14 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Can we bring it to 15 a close, 30 seconds? 16 MR. JUHANI KOPONEN: Yes. Colonial 17 time, the function was very different. At that 18 time, the development was taken as a means for 19 colonial exploitation. If you want to exploit 20 colonial, you have something to export. Some of 21 my colleagues are arguing that actually the 22 allotment comes from Europe and social history 23 work was understood as a means to historic order 24 disrupted by progress of industrial. And here 224 1 with the chairman, I have somewhat asked how 2 these things -- how that would be empirically 3 investigated. Look at the emergence of this 4 idea when time, how it was used in the 19th 5 Century Europe, export the colonial empires. 6 How this was, in my view, basically a colonial 7 notion was taken by the third world national 8 traders and then how this whole international 9 development has been going and how previously -- 10 (inaudible). Thank you very much. 11 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Thank you very 12 much. So I have a microphone now and does that 13 mean it's my turn? No, I don't think so. But 14 we've been journeying today and I want to thank 15 our panelists for helping bring our journey to 16 its first intermission today. Later we'll have 17 festivities and we'll talk some more over dinner 18 as in a good symposium fashion and continue 19 tomorrow; but we really have been journeying, if 20 you would, intellectually to understand change 21 over the long term. We have really been 22 journeying in discussing and thinking about 23 analytical frameworks and locations on where to 24 have the analytical frameworks, where those 225 1 analytical frameworks come from, how locations 2 around the world influence those frameworks and 3 how we view all of that so it really has been a 4 rich day; and we're going to now simply open 5 this up for some discussion, and I'm looking at 6 Howard as our first candidate, and then next 7 Hans after him. And Howard will say who he is 8 and where he's from. 9 MR. HOWARD SPODEK: I'm Howard Spodek, 10 Temple University. I wanted to actually make 11 very brief comments on all of the papers, 12 including the one that wasn't given, because I 13 thought that they were all very interesting. 14 The first was to Zhang Weiwei. We talked a 15 little bit yesterday at the reception. I read, 16 I think, in the New York Times three or four 17 weeks ago that in China, the place of -- 18 (inaudible) -- in the history books has suddenly 19 been sharply reduced to a page or something like 20 that, because which is not in our concern about 21 the revolution that he led but rather, with the 22 capitalism that is now developing in China. If 23 that's true, and it was in the New York Times, 24 if that's true, then I would say that China will 226 1 represent itself or at least one of the great 2 helmsmen, rather differently than we would 3 represent him in an American history textbook 4 where our focus is different. And I wonder if 5 you would speak. I also mentioned to Professor 6 Weiwei yesterday that I showed a copy of -- I 7 gave a copy of my own textbook to a friend of 8 mine in India who said, you know, you haven't 9 covered Abraham Lincoln. And I said, "well, you 10 know our students get Lincoln in the American 11 history textbooks," and he said, "yes, but 12 Lincoln is a world character and he should be 13 included, whether your students get him 14 elsewhere or not." 15 So the problem that we got this 16 morning from Silvia's comments, where do we send 17 to represent this? I was fascinated by the fact 18 that you come from Istanbul but your graduate 19 degrees are from Quadralupor and you address 20 Islamic institutions from Istanbul. I was 21 wondering if, in the course of your studies, who 22 did comparisons between these institutions as 23 they appear in Istanbul and as they appear in 24 Quadralupor? You didn't mention -- I wonder if 227 1 you did. (Inaudible) -- which is addressing a 2 part of the world in a time period that isn't 3 included, and I think she presents us with a 4 problem of whether world history is simply 5 additive. How do we cope with that? Because a 6 lot of the papers here and a lot of our 7 colleagues who do world history are very 8 concerned with world history covering each 9 place, each time period, and other people are 10 saying, "no, that's not what world history is 11 about at all." So it's just an issue that 12 arises. 13 I was hoping that John Wills would 14 actually speak about the papers that he gave us 15 because I've been thinking about this issue of 16 proventializing this as something -- 17 (inaudible) -- said. Frederic -- (inaudible) -- 18 recently said that the way he -- 19 (inaudible) -- is to look at the way other 20 empires have grown, which is not what -- 21 (inaudible) -- does and your paper that you gave 22 us here moved in that direction that Europe -- 23 I'm sorry. The example of China and the Chinese 24 empire would give us an opportunity to -- 228 1 (inaudible) -- Europe and I don't know whether 2 there is time for me to give a second paper but 3 it would be really interesting. We also spoke 4 last night about development and I think that 5 part of that issue of development studies might 6 be -- I mean, you're really talking about 7 international development, one country helping 8 another. The last years of colonialism. The 9 '40s were rather different than the early years 10 because the colonial powers had different 11 agendas as they saw independence coming; but 12 fundamentally, I was wondering if you could link 13 that discussion of the developmental state to 14 the whole idea that arises in Europe of the 15 activist state. Leaving -- going away from the 16 night watchman state. I suppose in the early 17 1800s, even myself knows about it enough, but it 18 seems to me the issue of development is related 19 to the notion that the state should be an active 20 state. Once you put that in a colonial context, 21 it changes, but I think that the questions are 22 related. 23 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Why don't we react 24 up here first before going on, only because I 229 1 don't want anyone to forget what the initial 2 questions were. So why don't we react, perhaps. 3 MR. ZHANG WEIWEI: That's a good 4 question. In China nowadays, more is coming 5 down. That's the truth but not as the New York 6 Times says. It's still very positive in 7 textbooks and in classroom discussion but, you 8 know, all of the historical understanding and 9 positions are historical because our 10 understanding of historical -- (inaudible) -- so 11 politically, economically, culturally, and 12 psychologically that's really a problem. 13 Different people in the world figure different 14 things because of -- I think the main reason 15 for -- (inaudible) -- because of 16 counterrevolution. 17 To tell you the truth, I suffer a lot 18 from that but, you know, those of whom in China 19 even who suffer from the cultural revolution is 20 still seeing -- (inaudible). There is no doubt. 21 We don't know how they -- (inaudible). Maybe 22 100 years later or something like that. We 23 don't care. But now because of the open and the 24 new policy, most -- (inaudible) -- for getting 230 1 things done because this idea is totally 2 different from -- (inaudible). We talk about -- 3 (inaudible) -- a couple of minutes ago with Dr. 4 Maher and said something. That is the truth 5 because, you know, the issue is two different 6 issues in Chinese history. It's going to change 7 a lot, I think. 8 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Okay. Does anyone 9 else want to react from the panel? Jack Wills? 10 MR. JACK WILLS: Jack Wills, University 11 of South California. I told Professor John 12 earlier that when it is written paper, has a 13 comment about the grievous division between 14 Chinese history and world history in the Chinese 15 profession and the way in which Chinese history 16 takes up about half of research and instruction 17 and so on in China, I told him that we've all 18 had this problem and those of us who teach in 19 the US -- now look around you and if I say US 20 historians, listen, watch the heads shaking and 21 listen to the stomachs grumbling at our anger at 22 our American mystery colleagues, and then I 23 thought they call themselves, even though they 24 are actually US history colleagues, they sure as 231 1 hell don't know anything about Canada or West 2 Mexico. And they don't have any sense of what 3 the potential of what they have for a history of 4 the 19th and 20th Centuries were. Now, Chris 5 Bailey and the origins of the birth of modern 6 world tries to get American history into his 7 19th Century world. It doesn't exactly come off 8 but it's a big step in the right direction. 9 Now, Professor John talks about not 10 having any center but Chinese history as it's 11 taught in China and as we study it in the US 12 fairly implicitly and almost explicitly centers 13 other capitals, the high officials and the most 14 developed sections of the country, especially 15 the lower -- (inaudible) -- area in China. 16 I got Steven -- (inaudible) -- Mentor 17 Ben Elman was really mad at me once by telling 18 him once two often but Ben is not China but 19 there are other Chinas that need to be brought 20 in. I'm one of the inventors of the world 21 maritime, John -- (inaudible). Southwest 22 China, there is a whole other set of 23 perspectives. (Inaudible) -- is a whole other 24 place so a decentered China starts to look much 232 1 more complicated and interesting for the world 2 historian but it's still one political unit, 3 which is the puzzle that I tried to advance our 4 understanding of. I'll stop there. 5 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Okay. Any other 6 reactions? 7 MR. ALI CAKSU: Yes, Ali Caksu. I 8 studied in Malaysia but my topic was on -- 9 (inaudible). But out of my own interest, I had 10 some comparative studies for my own, comparing, 11 for example, business partnerships. As one 12 author writes, when the ducks went to West 13 Indonesia, one can say they saw that business 14 practices were very similar to theirs so it was 15 because of his -- (inaudible) -- in Indonesia 16 and also, especially with the parties so some 17 things are ready. Some of them are very 18 similar. Other examples like -- (inaudible) -- 19 I found similar but they were weaker and one of 20 these might be the colonial route and the 21 break-up, made break-up continuity of them and 22 some bigger practices and some of them were 23 borrowings. Some of them were influence, as far 24 as I see. And the reason for similarities, one 233 1 of them is pilgrim -- (inaudible). Go to 2 pilgrim and that is why you can't see -- 3 (inaudible) -- from China, from Africa or from 4 Boston or Indonesia coming for pilgrimage and 5 this makes the spread of the ideas and books 6 especially very easy so you can see a book 7 written by -- (inaudible) -- Muslim and -- 8 (inaudible). Although the communication in 9 those ages were quite slow. And there are also 10 differences and I'm interested in political 11 philosophy. Sometimes I have comparison -- 12 (inaudible) -- letters saying something. 13 I saw more hierarchy in politics in 14 the political understanding traditionally in 15 Malaysia. Some of them might come from -- 16 (inaudible). Some of those things might be 17 coming from Hinduism or from native practices. 18 That's it. 19 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Thank you. Juhani? 20 MR. JUHANI KOPONEN: I would think that 21 the way I use the notion of allotment does not 22 only mean international development. It has 23 been used in that sense overwhelmingly since the 24 second World War during this time I called the 234 1 era of development. It has been used as a kind 2 of French national or international idealogic, 3 and I think it's because of the promise of -- 4 (inaudible), which is now implied in the ideal 5 development, and development is something which 6 is put for everybody. Development is a 7 common -- (inaudible). It has this kind of 8 morale, superior; but as we know very well, it 9 can be used for many different purposes. It can 10 be used to pursue some particular state 11 interest, economy interest, whatever it has 12 been. That's the way it has been functioning 13 during this year but the way I have -- 14 (inaudible). It goes beyond this. I mean, 15 there was this notion already before, and I'm 16 interested in -- I don't have an answer for at 17 the moment. 18 I think you are completely right that 19 an activist state is part of it, but I'm not 20 sure it's enough. I think, for instance -- 21 (inaudible) -- state is fairly an active state. 22 I don't see -- (inaudible) -- development in 23 order to qualify in my sense of development. 24 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Ms. Swarnalatha 235 1 and then we'll go back to Justin's comments. 2 MS. POTUKUCHI SWARNALATHA: I'm not 3 here, I must say, that I am looking for the 4 space for the so-called reasons into world 5 history and working. What I'm suggesting is 6 that in understanding the framework of the world 7 history, which is sensitive to be in terms of 8 the conception framework and the structure 9 approaches, we need to look at a space for the 10 regions that did play a considerable role in 11 understanding the networks of connections over 12 the historical country. 13 For instance, when we talk about the 14 images of pluralism and its domination in 15 Europe, for example, a suggestion when we 16 considered in the case of India, still 17 historians at the national level are saying 18 there was pluralism. I'm not going into those 19 details. Nevertheless, we need to consider the 20 cares of the independent states within the 21 country, how they have responded to these 22 interventions. Did they really accept this kind 23 of a phenomenon? Are they trying to bring out 24 on one parameter in bringing those so-called 236 1 concepts where the relevance seems to be very 2 limited? And the second important thing is that 3 when we talk about the global network and its 4 emergence, definitely we do consider the bidding 5 of the 15th Century as one of the big -- 6 (inaudible) -- where we start working on the 7 concepts of the global network. So it was that 8 particular point of time we do come across the 9 regions like Asia playing a very dominant role. 10 I'm sure that everybody has to -- we 11 thought the intervention, the colonial 12 intervention, was one way of understanding 13 the -- (inaudible) -- empire in Europe or in 14 Britain or anywhere else. So how much space are 15 we allocating to these areas in understanding 16 the global network under -- (inaudible) -- 17 connections and, therefore, take it to the 18 audience. 19 See, we are researchers and we do 20 understand that unsurmountable volumes are being 21 turned out at various universities and this is 22 defined and confined to the graduate and 23 postgraduate students; but when it comes to the 24 context of the second -- (inaudible) -- down the 237 1 ladder, how are we trying to bring it to the 2 audience, which is level, which is a more 3 powerful thing than talking about all of the two 4 tables or bringing it at the intellectual 5 discussions? I consider there is a bonus on us. 6 That is the way acceptance will definitely come 7 into play for the role of world history in the 8 global network. Thank you. 9 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Hans? 10 MR. HANS-HEINRICH NOLTE: I have two 11 questions and I put them in chronological order. 12 The first is Annie -- (inaudible) -- and the 13 question is very concrete. He talked about -- 14 (inaudible) -- and I really learned from that 15 because I came across the back central Asia in 16 Russian politics, and so on; but my question 17 would be, can you compare it to Christian 18 endowments? The endowments in Christian history 19 also played a considerable role in all of the 20 fields and throughout the Catholic church at 21 least. They were functioned according to the 22 same political rules. 23 But my second question is to -- 24 (inaudible). I like -- (inaudible) -- and I 238 1 really liked your part on it, on development, 2 but I have a special question. When the term -- 3 (inaudible) -- development, at least in German 4 intellectual history was invented and was used, 5 it was -- (inaudible). Then it had the meaning 6 that you have a search seed and from this seed, 7 you will have very different developments of 8 different -- (inaudible) -- of different 9 translation, difficulty, but let's say people's. 10 So when it gets the meaning that it's 11 not an argument for difference but an argument 12 for who the same thing in a very different -- 13 (inaudible) -- that would be the change with 14 which it's interesting, and it is to me; and I 15 think you could look it up in -- (inaudible) -- 16 with this lexicon on -- (inaudible), but I have 17 it in my mind now. 18 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Why don't we take 19 a few questions and then we can come back and 20 respond. I don't know who is next, but I'm 21 going to pick on Pat. Give Pat a microphone. 22 MR. PATRICK MANNING: Pat Manning. I 23 may have jumped a Q, but I want to respond to 24 one of his comments. There is supposed to be a 239 1 conference on research and research agenda. And 2 the issue of research has always had trouble in 3 struggling for attention compared with teaching 4 in world history. Nonetheless, your 5 presentation I found very convincing in 6 restating the way in which teaching world 7 history brings the ideas and the conceptions to 8 a level of breadth and to a level of choosing on 9 big issues that is not only helpful to your 10 students but poses the questions in productive 11 ways. 12 The particular question you posed to 13 us that I want to ask you about is that of 14 audience and you are speaking especially to the 15 audience in the country where you're working but 16 then generalizing that issue, and I want to say 17 the world is going to not address the question 18 of audience. William McNeil, a great founding 19 figure in world history, wrote very effectively 20 but always for an American audience, an audience 21 that Europeans could connect to, but we -- I 22 don't know who we have, who would write for a 23 global audience, is that, indeed, what we should 24 have or should we be writing for a series of 240 1 national audiences to be interested to your 2 response to that sort of question? 3 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Let's get a few 4 more. Annette and then Peter. 5 MS. ANNETTE HANSEN: Thank you. 6 Annette Hansen from the University of Aarhus. I 7 have three questions or comments. One has to do 8 with the ideas or, rather, discussion earlier of 9 the ideas and how they travel or how they move 10 and these discussions of whether it's just a 11 one-way flow of ideas or whether something else 12 is going on with the ideas when they land 13 somewhere, and I think a lot of what it has to 14 do with is translating them and creating 15 intelligible variations of these ideas in local 16 locations. But also, so that they can get 17 communicated and I think development is one of 18 these ideas also which are interesting to 19 follow. Not that my own research so much as 20 looking as development as an idea as just 21 simply -- well, I'll get to that later in terms 22 of global networks. But what's interesting to 23 me is that in order for any concept, any idea to 24 be understood and to be worked for specific 241 1 purposes, it needs to be intelligible to the 2 audiences, and I thought that one of the 3 examples of this was also this idea of defensive 4 organization with the Japanese experience of 5 being quite -- (inaudible) -- to that, in that 6 the understanding of modernization in much of 7 certainly Asia has gone through the Japanese 8 experience or rather, there has been an 9 understanding or falling, not at least in India 10 or China, a lot of students and people, 11 intellectuals throughout -- or in the late 1800s 12 throughout the 1900s were going to Japan to see 13 how they actually were very focused on what 14 Japan was doing, and that's just one of these 15 examples, how one of these ideas or experience 16 got translated in many different places. 17 My other comment is to Swarnalatha 18 about what is relevant to conclude in world 19 history, and I think it's not only within the 20 teaching but also when we're studying research 21 and world history. And somebody's -- 22 (inaudible) -- well, he was a person who, for 23 some reason, seems relevant to our concept of 24 world history, whereas maybe India wasn't for a 242 1 number of centuries, but that still creates 2 serious problems because I develop -- 3 (inaudible) -- I am with you to the extent that 4 I understand where you're coming from, but 5 thinking that it should be included, that these 6 were happening in India, that's relevant for 7 world history also during these centuries. 8 And finally, in terms of development, 9 since that's also my field as an historian, I 10 find it to be a very good example of some of the 11 challenges we're up against as historians 12 dealing with topics which are also the domains 13 of other fields and researchers. It is 14 certainly also my understanding of development 15 studies now. Even there are people getting 16 interested in histories and they are really 17 political scientists or economists that tag on 18 history chapters in their books; and the 19 question is, what is our function there or how 20 do we re-appropriate development as historians? 21 Because the other tricky things about 22 development is that a number of the people who 23 are actually involved in development studies, 24 just like Juhani, have not really engaged in the 243 1 profession so much as historians or rather, have 2 at least also engaged in other capacities and, 3 therefore, from India, have sort of been 4 questioning what the historians' roles really 5 were in development. So I think it's a very 6 interesting question and not in the least 7 because I see development and the ideas behind 8 development as being crucial for understanding 9 of global networks today that has been created 10 through the times or the connections made via 11 the development. Well, this source, as well as 12 the money flows and everything else tied into 13 that. 14 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: What I'll do is a 15 few more comments and then we'll respond. 16 Peter, Boris, David, and then we'll let the 17 panel respond, and then we'll go. 18 MR. PETER GRAN: Professor Peter Gran, 19 Temple University. I think the unity of this 20 panel has many important elements, whether 21 you're talking in terms of traditional history, 22 in terms of whether you're trying to represent 23 in any kind of enlightened fashion the history 24 of any other -- (inaudible). At this point in 244 1 time, it's very difficult to do that, given the 2 paradigm of world history, which I associate 3 with Hagel, with the sort of rise of the west 4 existence or rejected and the idea of people 5 without history. And in that sort of rebellion 6 that has sort of come up, I would like to sort 7 of say that, well, it's gone on now for 10, 20, 8 or 30 years since somebody wrote the book 9 "Orientalism," and among the versions of it, 10 which China and India and other places to direct 11 the idea of polycentrism as opposed to, say, 12 non-centrism, the idea that world history is the 13 son of a bunch of different cultures, and I'm 14 finding that with the idea of polycentrism, it's 15 an unsatisfactory solution, adding a region or a 16 culture or civilization to the total mix because 17 it ignores the question of power and that sort 18 of basically creates a kind of relativism. 19 And I could make the same complaint 20 about Victor Lieberman's efforts at parallelism. 21 And so I think ultimately, the question being 22 asked by everybody is that for a more 23 appropriate narrative which is closer to kind of 24 the middle level history from which one could 245 1 play off Chinese or Indian or other kinds of 2 Islamic history and make more appropriate sort 3 of entry of this material into world history and 4 until there is some emphasis, this can't happen. 5 Very, very quickly, I want to say that's not 6 very easy to get rid of people from China for 7 quite a while. Too many governments like -- 8 (inaudible). If your government, so-called 9 Islamic countries, you love to sort of say we're 10 different. We're eastern oriental. If you're 11 in the west, we love to teach it because 12 basically, it makes everybody in the classroom 13 feel more westerner so they are very strong 14 political reasons for keeping something like 15 Cagol in place. 16 Meanwhile, we historians, of course, 17 know that this is a problem, but the power 18 structures have their interests and power 19 structures dictate the fact that there is going 20 to be an orient and there is going to be a west 21 and this west is supposed to rise and we're 22 caught in a scientific situation that it's not 23 true and the knowledge that we have. So I think 24 what world history has been going on trying to 246 1 do for 20 years is to find some way to move 2 beyond this. And I think everybody in this room 3 has tried one thing or another but this, I 4 think, should be spoken to maybe -- I don't know 5 the document. I don't have the document for 6 this thing, but this is the burden which the 7 field bears, is we're responsible for teaching 8 what governments want taught and we have 9 outgrown it intellectually. 10 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: So we'll do Debin, 11 Boris, and David, and then Roger, and then we'll 12 have a reaction. How's that? Okay. 13 MR. DEBIN MA: Okay. Thank you very 14 much. My name is Debin Ma. I want to comment a 15 little bit on the question based earlier on the 16 case of -- (inaudible). The story I happened to 17 follow quite a bit and the reason I wanted to 18 sort of -- (inaudible). I think it's very 19 crucial to our world history research. Now, 20 this textbook about one page was not a national 21 textbook. It was a textbook done by some 22 educators in Shanghai and that these people, 23 these sort of young historians felt they had a 24 mission in some sense to -- (inaudible) -- 247 1 Chinese textbook. Look at the way the Chinese 2 textbook is written. It's not very much to -- 3 (inaudible). So we were saying we should write 4 it more like history of civilization and we were 5 talking about that's something that's more 6 unified, that's more mutual and -- (inaudible). 7 That has drawn controversy. That's why it was 8 supported in the New York Times as well, but 9 this is not a government official textbook 10 sanctioned by Bejing but interestingly they were 11 actually asked to clarify in terms of the 12 newspaper. They all get in that position so 13 apparently, someone saw it in China, recognized 14 that was trying to be opened up. There were 15 countries, and so on. We really need to think 16 about the way we write about our history. They 17 were shocked by the audience and by the Japanese 18 station they were commenting. There was so 19 much -- (inaudible) -- and all of that. 20 So these historians to arrive in that 21 kind of context, I think it was very interesting 22 to have this controversy. A lot of people 23 support it. And then you have these pretty 24 adamant policies, Japanese historians. Now, 248 1 this means by striking how you understand 2 Chinese politics. That would be really very far 3 away. 4 The point I tried to make and clarify 5 this whole part of history is saying, how 6 history is highly publicized in a country like 7 Shanghai. And history is really changing and 8 I'm all for what I think Boris earlier was 9 saying, to have a dialogue with these different 10 countries who really need to be aware of all of 11 the nuances, all of the things that are going 12 on, instead of having -- (inaudible) -- and 13 otherwise, we'll have a legal battle with -- 14 (inaudible). 15 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Okay. Boris 16 Stremlin. 17 MR. BORIS STREMLIN: Boris Stremlin, 18 Binghamton University. I just want to follow up 19 on these comments on textbooks because I agree 20 that everybody that says the writing of 21 textbooks, the production of textbooks is 22 absolutely crucial to the propagation of world 23 history because this is how most people in the 24 world come to know about world history, internal 249 1 world historical concepts, and this was true 2 even in the period that was dominated by 3 national histories because there is some notion 4 of what was going on in the world as a whole 5 that percolated them to a great many people and 6 this is how people reacted to the idea that the 7 world has -- (inaudible). But the question 8 which I want to ask is, who are the historians 9 or who are the scholars who actually are 10 associated with the production of these 11 textbooks? Which networks are they imbedded in? 12 Are they scholars who have a wide degree of 13 exposure to networks which are centered in poor 14 countries or in western countries that use that 15 term again, or are they people coming out for 16 more -- (inaudible) -- networks? 17 I mean, in India, this debate has been 18 raging for the last ten years where the 19 proponents stood up and said that the history 20 which we were teaching to our kids is all wrong 21 and the big villain in this is Ronald -- 22 (inaudible), who is a Marxist or who has a lot 23 of degree of exposure in the west and he's 24 propagating this notion in the area invasion 250 1 theory, which, of course, is all false and we 2 need to put out new textbooks which say that 3 there is never an invasion that India has been 4 absorbing people for a millennia. And who are 5 the people who are producing the textbooks now 6 in India, in China, in various other places? 7 Are they historians at all? Where are the 8 people from other disciplines in these places 9 that are contributing to the contribution to 10 world knowledge that is percolating down -- 11 (inaudible). 12 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Okay. Two more and 13 then we're going to let the panel react. You're 14 very patient. Thank you. David Perry. 15 MR. DAVID PERRY: I'm David Perry, 16 McAllister College. The comments of Swarnalatha 17 specifically focused on the lack of content on 18 the Indian medieval period has raised an issue 19 of chronology as it relates to our mission here 20 during this conference. I've noticed, looking 21 through the biographies, that of the 40 of us, 22 perhaps only three or four of us really work on 23 periods before around 1500; and I mean no 24 criticism to the organizers of the conferences. 251 1 It's the people who applied to be here. I've 2 also noticed many of the proposals that Leslie 3 Witz called additive proposals, that many of 4 them, no matter how compelling, that the cases 5 have been for these various subjects, that many 6 of those proposals exclude an earlier world, 7 that they are talking about the post colonial 8 world, at least the colonial world or the 9 globalized world, and it concerns me. It 10 concerns me as a medieval historian but it 11 concerns me also as thinking of -- (inaudible)-- 12 or any other -- (inaudible) -- that were not 13 here as we work on our agenda. 14 We have another head of us and then 15 this process of developing this statement that 16 we develop a research agenda that is not an 17 agenda for modern world history but for world 18 history. 19 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Okay. Roger Beck. 20 MR. ROGER BECK: The idea of 21 developing -- I think it might be interesting to 22 look at the question of South Africa which, 23 again, in the '40s and '50s, with the idea of 24 aparte. When that became a very -- (inaudible) 252 1 -- term. And that idea of using development, I 2 think, would be very related -- (inaudible) -- 3 to include into your settings of separate 4 artificially defined groups developing in their 5 own so-called traditions to -- (inaudible). But 6 I want to make a comment about the textbooks. 7 I'm trying to decide on whether the world 8 history -- because I got experience, of course, 9 with -- (inaudible) -- college textbooks and I 10 was asked a couple of years ago to come to 11 Washington to give a talk at the German 12 Institute on writing textbooks. As I was 13 looking, writing a paper, I thought about 20 14 years or so that I've been working on WJ and 15 every conference, every meeting we talked about 16 what made a good world history textbook and what 17 was world history and I was really kind of 18 targeted, and I got to the point of going to 19 this conference and say some people to write 20 this textbook but from a non-essential 21 viewpoint, can we really truly write that kind 22 of textbook? And I struggle with this all of 23 the time when I'm writing myself, and I got a 24 really flattery -- (inaudible). I don't know if 253 1 they'll ever invite me back again. Of course 2 it's silly. Of course you can't do that. I may 3 point out about, if you're talking about 4 Vietnam, you say the American War or Vietnam War 5 or you have to put both of them in there and you 6 do that every time you talk about anything so 7 this idea of -- (inaudible). When you say that 8 it sounds very sure that's what we want to do 9 but to actually do that becomes more -- 10 (inaudible) -- when you are sitting down with 11 these people. 12 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: So now we'll give 13 the panel some time. Who would like to enter 14 the arena first? Jack Wills? 15 MR. JACK WILLS: I'm sure Pat didn't 16 mean to argue that the world history community 17 should move away from the deep interest in 18 teaching, because I think this has been one of 19 the glories of this community. That this has 20 been -- that this remains one of -- this remains 21 the least obsessed with -- (inaudible) -- 22 intellectual community that I have ever 23 encountered that we really take seriously the 24 issues of what belongs in textbooks and in 254 1 teaching of all levels and in public discourse. 2 And I certainly hope, for the sake of our 3 totally screwed up public sphere in this 4 country, that we continue to do so and that we 5 find new ways to do so. Now, David, comes my 6 third commercial for H World. 7 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Very good. I won't 8 have to now. 9 MR. JACK WILLS: It seems to me that 10 there are a lot of countries in the world where 11 there are a lot of important things that can't 12 be said in textbooks; and I would not want to be 13 a writer of a Chinese textbook who tried to 14 figure out how to say something balanced and 15 sensible about the -- (inaudible). I would not 16 want to be a writer of a Turkish textbook that 17 tried to figure out how to talk, how to write 18 about what happened to the Armenians. I would 19 not want to fill in the blanks, including a 20 whole bunch, in relation to state adoptable 21 textbooks in the United States. 22 It seems to me that part of what we 23 can do in some fashion as a world history 24 community is to say and run it through H World 255 1 or -- (inaudible) -- high off H World, here are 2 resources. Here is the range of -- here's a 3 range of recent articulate evaluations of Mounta 4 Dome in Chinese and in English. (Inaudible). 5 Here is text on the Armenians. Isn't this 6 right? No. It's somebody else. Has a big book 7 out about what happened to the Armenians. Let's 8 get a pro and con on there that people can grow 9 on. Let's get the pro and con on there about 10 the Japanese -- (inaudible) -- of the -- 11 (inaudible) -- massacre and the Chinese 12 patriotic inflations, if such they are. 13 I think some of them clearly have 14 political intent, et cetera. So I don't know 15 how to structure this; but look, if it's out 16 there in Cyberspace, everybody can get it. You 17 go to the Chinese city today, and especially 18 your universities. (Inaudible). That's what 19 the two words mean. And every once in a while, 20 the government gets upset and tries to find some 21 new way to control these damned things, but it 22 doesn't work. It's some kind of -- 23 (inaudible) -- appears within weeks and I would 24 expect the same thing is true in Istanbul. I 256 1 wouldn't be surprised if it's -- (inaudible) -- 2 although I wouldn't want to be the person who 3 was trying to access -- (inaudible). So we've 4 got something here at that level that we might 5 be able to make some kind of a contribution 6 about. 7 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Okay. Thank you. 8 Ms. Swarnalatha, do you want to respond? 9 MS. POTUKUCHI SWARNALATHA: Yes. Come 10 back to the major question which we are 11 addressing today in this panel is the audience, 12 the Internet audience for the world history 13 project on preparation of the textbooks. So 14 here my idea of putting across the so-called 15 national of audience is that this is a seminar 16 that is looking for something for the world 17 history research, globalization and the 18 connections. Therefore, for me to -- the 19 audience are those who are trying to niche a 20 place within the larger context of the world. 21 I'm not interested only in confining 22 to the national boundaries. Here, whatever we 23 are working, even at the regional level, 24 nevertheless, we have a -- (inaudible) -- on us 257 1 to take it, this particular continent or 2 approach to a larger set of the audience where 3 we need to emphasize especially in the 4 international schools where I'm looking for the 5 international bachelor program and also ideal 6 and teaching. The one thing which I had come up 7 across is that the code scales, which are very 8 specific to the subject and approach towards the 9 subject are the two things that find commonality 10 across the world and in any university, that is 11 the place where you find a place for yourself, 12 so long as we, as the teachers, and, therefore, 13 the researchers in history, if we can get a 14 course of study that tries to base itself on a 15 concept of framework and, therefore, through 16 this concept, trying to emphasize the so-called 17 critical thinking scales, that will take us to 18 the signs and other disciplines. 19 Therefore, it is possible for us to 20 find a larger place in the knowledge arena 21 itself and definitely will play a -- find a 22 place in the globalization or whatever. That's 23 the place where we find a place for the 24 historians. Otherwise, I do feel that if I can 258 1 find myself for national boundaries, I do admit 2 that history as such is considered to be rather 3 the last option for the students and the 4 national university in the context of the 5 globalization. So I'm not talking about that 6 kind of an arena. I'm talking about a place 7 where the history and its research speak at the 8 audience at the global level and this is 9 possible only through skills and the concept 10 framework; and I would like to give a couple of 11 references which, though, I do accept that 12 little bit of euro -- (inaudible) -- in their 13 approach. Still I admire a lot. 14 The work that is being currently done 15 by the school history project network in the UK 16 working for the past 20 years where they are 17 bringing out the issues which are very much 18 pertinent in understanding the global history. 19 For example, a textbook on the medieval long -- 20 (inaudible) -- starting from the 16th Century to 21 the 15th Century has been titled as contrast and 22 connections, where this topic was a key 23 question. How civilized were the Romans? The 24 concepts of civilized word itself has been 259 1 questioned and is put across to the students 2 towards the end of the unit. They will come out 3 of their own perspectives. And the second thing 4 is, are we looking at Islam as a -- (inaudible)? 5 No. There are questions. The major unit starts 6 with, is Islam a college? Therefore, they are 7 starting with, why did this culture emerge? 8 What made the culture to transfer its boundaries 9 and put across the continent? Why did the 10 people accept -- (inaudible)? And, therefore, 11 you are creating a process of deflection among 12 the students to think about and to find out 13 nuances as contested -- (inaudible) -- that are 14 being debated. So these are the things I think 15 you need to slowly incorporate in understanding 16 and, therefore, I don't see any difference as a, 17 once again, compartment has once that history 18 textbook and the teaching of history is 19 different and from doing research in history so 20 as a professional in history, I do think that 21 these two irrelevant integrated elements and, 22 therefore, we have something on us to take 23 research into the classroom. Until then, 24 whichever, unless it's not possible. 260 1 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Any other 2 reactions? 3 JUHANI KOPONEN: He asked me what are 4 historians like myself doing with development, 5 scholars like myself? I think what historians 6 are doing in general, what is the function of 7 historians? Historians think that they are 8 doing research. They are teaching. They are 9 producing historical knowledge. They are 10 disseminating -- (inaudible) -- knowledge. Yes. 11 Why? For what purpose? To teach people to 12 think historically, to bring historical sense 13 into things, and I think it is one big part of 14 the course that things -- when we realize then 15 but also another big part is to teach some sense 16 of relevance. If you want to change things, if 17 you want to change worlds, it's not bad to know 18 some things are easier to change. Some things 19 are more difficult to change. Some things take 20 more time to change than others. I don't see 21 that would be the function of historians in 22 Europe and historians dealing with development 23 studies. Then you asked for the origins and 24 something of this notion of the development, 261 1 actually, I have had a short book -- 2 (inaudible). My understanding of the origin of 3 the word is that it means something sort of 4 opening up something that has been closed. 5 Rolling out something. The same sense we still 6 have when we speak with developing photographs. 7 But I obviously need to have a real -- 8 (inaudible) -- here about this. But even to 9 imply that we -- (inaudible) -- I think it's 10 good to include cases like South Africa in this 11 kind of discussion. 12 The way I look at this notion, I look 13 at it -- (inaudible). So it's in a different 14 question, whether there are similar notions in 15 other projects. That's different. Thank you. 16 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: So we're going to 17 go to the garden of world history with all of 18 our seeds. But Ali will comment. 19 MR. ALI CAKSU: That was a question 20 about the existence of comparative works on the 21 Christian and Muslim philanthropy foundation. 22 To my knowledge, unfortunately, there are no -- 23 (inaudible). In some articles on the Islamic 24 foundation, we come across with information on 262 1 Roman -- (inaudible) -- or Catholic foundations 2 and also, they draw attention to similarities 3 and some identity characteristics. One reason 4 for the lack of such a kind of a work might be 5 linguistic because for Islam foundations, you 6 need Arabic and -- (inaudible). So for the 7 other ones, you need Latin and all Greek, I 8 think. So it seems to be beyond the difference 9 set of a single scholar, but it might not be an 10 impossible mission, let us say, because there is 11 always work in the Islamic foundation and works 12 on the European or Christian foundations so a 13 small team composed of scholars from both sites 14 can come together and in two years or in a short 15 time can produce a comparative work. This can 16 be one solution. 17 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Thank you. Let's 18 take one more comment or question. David 19 Christian. 20 MR. DAVID CHRISTIAN: David Christian, 21 San Diego State. I think there is an emerging 22 question which I was just wanting to -- it comes 23 partly from this discussion that's been touched 24 in relation to teaching and scholarships. I 263 1 sometimes think that clarification about what 2 the world history is or can be may come exactly 3 that point. They were asking questions not what 4 did you research but what should you teach? 5 Like Jack, I directly value the commitment of 6 WHA to this concept. I just recently read an 7 article by a Ph.D. student at the University of 8 Michigan who was asking this question as someone 9 interested in the problem with teaching so the 10 question is, what is world history? Because 11 somebody teaches world history in this complete 12 nightmare situation. They read all of the 13 things that the scholars say and it's off so she 14 decided she's going to sit down and she's going 15 to figure out what the world historians do, 16 other than listening to what they say, so she 17 reads away to 154 articles in the Journal of 18 World History and she does an analysis and she 19 comes up with an answer. And they are all over 20 the place. They all say different things and 21 they finally decide, that's it. That's what 22 world history is. And her conclusion is these 23 are my words, that world history is that 24 discipline within history that specializes in 264 1 looking at different diverse in spacial temporal 2 and conceptual scales. So these arguments are 3 precisely, she says, what is at the sort of -- 4 what is the deep structure of world history? 5 And I won't talk long enough about the article 6 to decide whether I'm completely persuaded by it 7 but at least I find it a very fascinating 8 article. She's saying what world history is? 9 Is it history that struggles with issues of 10 scale? 11 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: Well, maybe one 12 more. Anyone else? Jack was trying earlier. 13 Jack Owens. 14 MR. JACK OWENS: Jack Owens, Idaho 15 State University. I'll keep this very brief 16 because we're, in fact, out of time. And I'm as 17 tired as everyone else but, you know, we've 18 talked a lot in this panel and I can go back to 19 the one in talking about religion, about ideas 20 or conceptual schemes and it seems that everyone 21 is assuming that these somehow are -- 22 (inaudible) -- but I have not heard any 23 explanation about how ideas or conceptual 24 schemes would actually -- (inaudible) -- human 265 1 action. The problem shows up, I think, best in 2 dealing with religion where you get people who 3 are part of the same faith community who know 4 less, act in remarkably different ways. How can 5 that be and how would that fit within any stress 6 on the importance of ideas or conceptual schemes 7 for world historians? 8 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: We can't answer 9 that, but let me just make a final comment, that 10 ideas and conceptual schemes, the way I'm taking 11 liberty of the chair, the way that we do our 12 research, the way that we do our teaching, and 13 they are integrated, I mean, why do we bother 14 doing research? Is it just for the books that 15 we try and publish, that we hope someone reads 16 and probably not many do? But if we write them 17 and publish them for people who are in our 18 classes to read, well, then, there is a reason 19 to do the work, too, because the audience, 20 again, comes up. We are teaching but I think 21 that the extension of what you're saying about 22 the conceptual idea, the ideas, the concepts, 23 the frameworks, all of the journeying we're 24 doing today might lead us to the point that Jack 266 1 had raised earlier, which is utilizing not only 2 H World but other Internet forums but beginning 3 to think of them and ways for creating the -- 4 (inaudible) -- to use your metaphor for future 5 collaboration around concrete projects, and I 6 know Eric Martin and I at H World, and then with 7 Pat Manning and others as we're developing the 8 network site, are thinking about ways to 9 comportize or create concrete opportunities for 10 focused discussions leading to either teaching 11 kinds of projects or research kinds of projects 12 that lead towards the classroom. 13 I know that's something to think 14 about. We are eating tonight at, I guess -- 15 just so I can make a comment, between 6:30 and 16 8:30 is the reception so I will leave you go but 17 before I leave you, about 45 minutes of rest 18 before dinner. I'm just going to announce that 19 the conference planning committee, those of you 20 who are on the conference planning committee, 21 please stay. We are going to have a little 22 meeting here with Pat; and those of you who have 23 participated in this session, I want to thank 24 you. I want to thank the panel. And I want to 267 1 thank this young woman here as well very much. 2 Thank you all. We'll see you at dinner. 3 (Whereupon, the meeting was 4 adjourned at 5:33 p.m.) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 268 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I, Myriam A. Maracas, Registered 4 Professional Reporter, do hereby certify that 5 the foregoing transcript is a true and accurate 6 transcription of my stenographic notes taken on 7 November 11, 2006. 8 9 10 Myriam A. Maracas 11 Registered Professional 12 Reporter 13 14 15 - - - - 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 1 1 VOLUME: II PAGES: 1 to 210 2 EXHIBITS: None 3 4 THE WORLD HISTORY NETWORK 5 RESEARCH AGENDA SYMPOSIUM 6 RESEARCH IN WORLD HISTORY: 7 CONNECTIONS & GLOBALIZATIONS 8 9 Boston, John Hancock Conference Center 10 11 Sunday, November 12, 2006. 12 8:30 a.m. 13 14 (Myriam A. Maracas, Court Reporter) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Okay. Let's get 3 started. Good morning. I'm Deborah Johnston. 4 I actually teach at our local high school here 5 in Massachusetts but went through the doctoral 6 program with many in the room and Pat has been 7 on the planning committee for this event and, of 8 course, it's intellectually stimulating for us 9 all. We're not in for quite as long a day as we 10 had yesterday, and I'm sure an equally exciting 11 day. I'm thrilled that I have a panel before 12 you here that is so diverse. 13 We represent five different 14 continents, as well as scholars from all over 15 the place and it truly is a transnational -- 16 (inaudible). Many people here were born in one 17 country, educated in another, and are now 18 teaching at a third. Of course their work is 19 transnational itself as well. And just to pick 20 up for many of the themes we talked about 21 yesterday, some of which you'll hear today, is 22 on the theme, obviously, of human people and 23 migration but the local global theme, I think, 24 will come up a lot, as well as urban history and 3 1 we'll hear, again, about material culture. So 2 based on the individual panels, I think 3 interdisciplinary will be another theme that 4 we'll hear a lot as we go. Just a reminder to 5 the panel. We're going to speak slowly. It's a 6 challenge for me, too, not so much as a 7 challenge as it is for David, but it is a 8 challenge articulately, and we'll stop if there 9 are any audibility problems. 10 Our first speaker this morning is 11 Professor Adapa, who teaches at the University 12 of Osmania in India. And then he's going to 13 focus on migration networks, specifically 14 looking at intra-Asian labor migrations and 15 interestingly, I think it will be a point of 16 view that many of us haven't heard before. So 17 we welcome your comments. 18 MR. ADAPA SATYANARAYANA: Thank you. I 19 am Adapa from India. Good morning, everybody. 20 The title of my presentation is "Globalization 21 and Migration Studies, a Nation Perspective." 22 My proposal seeks to fill up certain gaps and 23 correct some imbalances and balances in our 24 understanding of modern world history. I wish 4 1 to plead for the need to undertake more 2 comprehensive research on the intra issue 3 migrations and be the significance of the Asian 4 continent in the allusion of modern world 5 economy and globalization in a long-term 6 historical and -- (inaudible). I believe that 7 Asian migrations and life experiences of these 8 people work and are also to the contribution of 9 Asian continents to the changing world -- 10 (inaudible). Thus in order to comprehend the 11 nature and faculties of migration, it's 12 something to reorder certain priorities by 13 giving the study of globalization in the context 14 of Asian internationalism, a prominent place on 15 the agenda of world history, research and study. 16 For instance, the movement of people 17 at -- (inaudible) -- and regional -- 18 (inaudible) -- illuminates such a dimension. I 19 suggest that the diversity and unevenness of 20 globalization need to be analyzed, keeping in 21 view the non-western dimensions as we're asked 22 to explore its historical quality and context. 23 In this context, it is important to raise 24 certain issues pertaining to migration tourists 5 1 and paradigms as -- (inaudible) -- the migration 2 studies are -- (inaudible) -- and conflicting 3 interpretations. You have a range of theories 4 from -- (inaudible) -- point of view to the 5 Marxist and structuralist interpretations and 6 some of these theories are, in fact -- 7 (inaudible) -- in the regional context so I 8 would focus on the south -- (inaudible) -- 9 integration into the world capitalist market by 10 the intra Asian trade capital -- (inaudible) -- 11 into the world economy. 12 For instance, the opening of 13 intereconomy under colonial and -- 14 (inaudible) -- to long distance trade was not 15 simply an opening to the metropolitan west. It 16 was also simultaneously an opening to Asia on 17 an -- (inaudible) -- scale. The impact of 18 migration and -- (inaudible) -- and southeast 19 Asia is an important dimension of the global 20 economic history. Therefore, the study of -- 21 (inaudible) -- migration alone, movement of 22 capital, which -- (inaudible) -- help us to 23 understand the nature and dynamics of 24 colonialism and imperialism in the 19th and 20th 6 1 Centuries. I think I will stop here. 2 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Thank you very 3 much. Our next speaker will be Marilyn Lake. 4 Marilyn teaches in LaTrobe, at the University of 5 LaTrobe in Australia. She herself would be 6 looking at transnational history, particularly 7 race and gender issues within migration patterns 8 and human rights issues. One of the things that 9 is interesting is that she is currently on a 10 leave where she has the luxury of being able to 11 read non-stop for five years and research, and 12 so we're all jealous. 13 MS. MARILYN LAKE: Thank you very 14 much. My name is Marilyn Lake. I come from -- 15 I teach at the LaTrobe University in Australia. 16 And I would like to thank the organizers very 17 much for inviting me here and to say what a 18 fascinating and informative couple of days it 19 is; and also, that it's been able to provide 20 important connections for me between my work and 21 of other people. And connections is one of my 22 themes today. 23 I first thought, though, in the brief 24 time I have, I would just like to start to make 7 1 some comments in the light to reflect on what 2 I've heard so far. It seems to me that world 3 history, in defining research agendas in world 4 history, that we can identify at least three 5 tensions. Does the tension between teaching 6 needs pertain to syllabus, takes resources and 7 especially the mission of teaching? What is it 8 that we think students should know? And on the 9 other hand, questions that arise after research 10 driven agendas, which might be quite different 11 because it seems to me that research has to 12 start with questions, with things that you want 13 to find out. 14 For example, in my case, it might be 15 why does Singapore become a Chinese settlor 16 society or why did D.W. Boice identify so 17 strongly with Japanese and Japanese in 1919? 18 Secondly, there is a tension between 19 an approach to world history research, the 20 distraction around patterns or themes or 21 parallel stories across world history. For 22 example, relating to agricultural or 23 urbanization or spreads of religion on the one 24 hand and an approach that focuses on mobilities 8 1 and encounters and interconnections and 2 circulations, whether that be of people or ideas 3 or text or commodities. And these encounters 4 often produce new outcomes. 5 Thirdly, I think there is that tension 6 between approaches that take large subjects or 7 entities as given. For example, China or Islam 8 or the Caribbean, and explains their impact on 9 or contribution to or relationship with the rest 10 of the world, a tension between that approach on 11 the one hand and a focus on the production of 12 new forms or forms always in process, new 13 identities or ways of being in the world. 14 One example of the latter might be to 15 investigate emergence of the category -- 16 (inaudible) -- how and why did such different 17 civilizations of India, China, Japan, Vietnam, 18 for example, be generically defined and 19 categorized -- (inaudible). 20 The research agenda seems to me must 21 be driven by research questions. What is it 22 that we want to know and, of course, we probably 23 all want to know quite different things. One of 24 my questions is, how did the migration of the 9 1 modern world, Chinese, European, Indian, for 2 example, shake new entities, new societies and 3 political -- (inaudible) -- and transnational 4 and national solidarities? It's instructive, I 5 think, that the political forum makes so many 6 influences -- for example, notably Gandhi and 7 Suyatsin occurred in -- (inaudible) -- 8 communities in the new world. Obviously Gandhi 9 and South African -- (inaudible) -- and Hawaii. 10 Why was that? I think the research agenda today 11 of world history should be to chart and explain 12 the outcomes of different world encounters. 13 I, for example, am interested in these 14 encounters across the new world. But I just 15 want to mention one in particular to suggest the 16 sorts of issues that arise, and that is the 17 impact of Chinese migration in Australia to the 18 Australian economy in the 19th Century. That 19 subject has traditionally made a study in terms 20 of the impact of the Chinese on Australian 21 history or the persecution of the Chinese within 22 Australian history. It's a national story. But 23 it seems to me there is a much larger, more 24 interesting story there, and that has well 10 1 historical dimensions pertaining, for example, 2 to changing understandings of sovereignty and 3 manhoods and the -- (inaudible) -- 4 interpretations. The Chinese defense of their 5 settlement, in terms of the law of nations, they 6 frequently sign something on the law of nations, 7 cited a certain understanding of sovereignty to 8 find and treaty obligations, whereas Australians 9 sought colonists like Californians and rich 10 Columbians cited white names, democratic rights 11 as self-governing sovereign men. That is their 12 superior sovereignty as they claimed, lay, in 13 fact, of their white manhood and hence, manhood 14 itself in these encounters in the 1860s, 1870s, 15 is elevated as a political value and that will 16 have long-term repercussions down the decades. 17 It was a confrontation that saw two 18 different understandings of sovereignty made 19 explicit and to different ideas of what 20 constituted good government. As the Chinese saw 21 it, the rule of a wise and educated elite versus 22 the rule of the ignorant -- (inaudible) -- that 23 was democracy and in the process, the -- 24 (inaudible) -- the Democratic white man became 11 1 deeply gendered and deeply racialized. So for 2 me, research agenda in world history might start 3 with questions such as, how was democracy 4 racialized or how did Chinese, Indians, and 5 Japanese respond to white racism around the 6 world? This is a global story. And that's a 7 question, I think, that might shape the research 8 agenda in world history. Thank you. 9 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Thank you very 10 much, Marilyn. Our next speaker will be Anne 11 Gerritsen, and she is currently in Warwick, 12 England, and born in the Netherlands and a China 13 scholar. So, again, transnational element here. 14 And I think you'll hear within her remarks today 15 some echos of the material cultures issues that 16 we talked about yesterday, perhaps, as well as 17 the local to global issue that we'll hear more 18 of today. Thank you. 19 MS. ANNE GERRITSEN: Thank you very 20 much. I suppose one of the advantages of 21 speaking on the second day is that you do have 22 some time to reflect a little more on this 23 enterprise of world history, and I've thought 24 about my place within that; and it's become 12 1 clear to me, more clear really than it was 2 before I came here, that for me, world history 3 is about the ways in which the human experience 4 is shaped by movement, movement over time, 5 movement of people, new movement of things, 6 movement of ideas. And I suppose as an early 7 modernist, and I'm particularly interested in 8 that movement and everything that happens around 9 that movement in the centuries, I guess, between 10 1300 and 1800 so I share some of the concerns 11 that were expressed yesterday about the kind of 12 disappearance of the premodern in our endeavors. 13 I know it's not quite gone but I want 14 to keep that flag flying. So although I very 15 much like this idea of working closely with 16 scientists and environmentalists and trying to 17 capture this entirety of the human story in one 18 single narrative, I'm not sure that I feel ready 19 to do that at this point. But then, I suppose, 20 if this is a field that encourages multiple 21 approaches and collaboration between us, then I 22 think probably there is a place for both of 23 those who write total history from the 24 paleolithic into the 20th Century and those who 13 1 only explore -- (inaudible) -- I think it seems 2 to me is to find ways of making those moments 3 accumulate and to try and gather something at 4 the end of that. That is more than just the sum 5 total of those pasts. So, of course, one way of 6 getting at that is collaborations, and I'm very 7 much looking forward to hearing over lunch how 8 exactly we're going to achieve that kind of 9 collaboration; but I think the other thing we 10 need, and I share Marilyn's concerns here, is 11 the formulation of research questions. It seems 12 to me that reserving questions so far have not 13 emerged particularly clearly yet and yet, I 14 think those are going to be essential for trying 15 to tie us together, if that's what we are hoping 16 to do. So I have some different questions and 17 one in particular that I would like to propose; 18 and that is, how does the global transform the 19 local? 20 Now, in my particular case, and I want 21 to expand on this very long, but what that 22 question means is that I want to look at 23 patterns of local change that emerge in a place 24 called Ginger -- (inaudible) -- in Southern 14 1 China as Ginger -- (inaudible). In the early 2 18th Century, Ginger journey was the only place 3 in the world that was making porcelain and its 4 wares were exported all over the world. So 5 locally produced ceramics were adapted in many 6 ways to global tastes so for the middle eastern 7 markets, vessels were made with abstract 8 multi-colored symmetrical patterns that were 9 quite different from the local tastes and for 10 the dinner tables of the rich in Holland, in 11 France, and England. Jars were created, for 12 example, with ladies with fans and pavilion and 13 the willow, as I'm sure you can imagine, which, 14 in fact, were patterns created, copying patterns 15 that were designed in Holland or in England that 16 were in -- (inaudible) -- copies of patterns 17 that came from China. 18 So there are fascinating cross 19 cultural interactions and responses and 20 collaborations; but what I think has not yet 21 been looked at in any way is the local response 22 so the local transformation that was part of 23 that global connection. So how did the Ginger 24 journey itself change as it was drawn into these 15 1 global patterns of fashion and style and 2 consumption? So as a research question, I think 3 that actually fits with quite a lot of the 4 things that this panel is trying to do here. I 5 think Professor Adapa, for example, talks about, 6 as I understand it, labor migration and the 7 effect on regional and even at the local village 8 level. The Professor has mentioned these 9 formations of racial and gender subjectivities 10 in transnational encounters. Again, these are 11 localized incidents in a transnational context. 12 Professor Adapa, I think, will go on 13 to talk about relations between migrants and 14 their home countries between return migration 15 and locality. Professor Perry will talk about 16 transformations of Venice under the influence of 17 global connectivity. Mr. Spodek, I hope, will 18 talk about urbanization in terms of global 19 transformation in its local, so I think it fits 20 this panel well. I think it also goes beyond 21 it. It draws, for example, on local 22 historiographies the creation of local 23 identities in written materials but also in 24 visual materials in the public sphere, in the 16 1 local museums. So I propose that that should be 2 one of the questions that we might like to 3 consider at least as one of the research 4 questions. How does the global transform the 5 local? Thank you. 6 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Thank you very 7 much. At this point, I would like to welcome 8 Peter Adebayo from the University of Llorin, 9 Nigeria. He will focus part of his remarks on 10 his own work dealing with Lebanese migrates to 11 Nigeria; and in the course of broadening, I 12 believe, our understanding and studying that 13 they ask to migration issues. 14 MR. PETER ADEBAYO: Good morning. 15 Thanks for inviting me to this conference, 16 especially -- (inaudible) -- on the issue of 17 globalization and that of history scholarships. 18 My first response to this issue of world 19 history -- actually, when I go to the abstract, 20 my intention was that someone with a scholarship 21 should try to be here but -- (inaudible) -- and 22 was very glad when I went back to Nigeria -- 23 (inaudible) -- a lot of the world in Lebanon and 24 I go to the -- (inaudible) -- the invitation so 17 1 I'm very, very glad to be here. The issue of -- 2 (inaudible) -- is what migration and 3 transnational work, because the -- (inaudible)-- 4 as were recognized in the development by the 5 development -- (inaudible). I'm really not 6 African -- (inaudible) -- in the development 7 process in Africa. Especially in this era when 8 the issue of -- when the history as we 9 questioned that, the overall history to the 10 development societies, especially in Africa as 11 we question. 12 People do really take history as a 13 serious subject. They just look at it as one of 14 those liberal arts. We just go to the 15 university and you pick up something but to make 16 it more dynamic in the 21st Century and to see 17 how history can move to solve a lot of problems 18 that are confronted in Africa -- (inaudible) -- 19 walks of Africans in the past and they didn't 20 deal with the problem in Africa. It deals with 21 the problem of -- (inaudible) -- integration in 22 the -- (inaudible) communities. And this idea 23 as well -- (inaudible) -- design new syllables 24 that will make the black to accommodate problems 18 1 that are related to Africa. Issues should 2 include -- (inaudible) -- migration, which has 3 never been -- which is the worldwide -- 4 (inaudible) -- since 1885 when -- (inaudible) -- 5 there has not been much studies on migration 6 but -- (inaudible) -- to Africa -- 7 (inaudible) -- and so on. There are plenty of 8 prominent parts -- (inaudible) -- so many of 9 these Africans in the -- (inaudible) -- some of 10 them are now sending such -- (inaudible) -- back 11 to play a good role. Some come back to programs 12 for themselves which will affect the society. 13 But the problem we have is that our 14 world history agenda relates all of these 15 development process to the history of the 16 Gaspora and the history to be attractive, put in 17 African universities and secondary schools. For 18 this I suggested that realistic approach should 19 be taken that -- (inaudible) -- migration tries 20 to bring to light the contemporary challenges 21 that fills the African society. The 22 establishment should be a linkage between 23 history to economics, anthropology, and so on, 24 and this makes history to be more dynamic. 19 1 The -- (inaudible) -- is, of course, crucial to 2 the significance of development of economics in 3 the different sociological and anthropologic -- 4 (inaudible) -- of the migrant and if this is 5 done, I believe that the world history project 6 shall deal with the problems of Gaspora -- 7 (inaudible) -- and transnational working in 8 relation to African societies of the 21st 9 Century. Especially when you put this against 10 the background of globalization and the -- 11 (inaudible) -- dynamics of the whole world. 12 That is my notation. Thank you. 13 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Thank you very 14 much. Not that we're paying any attention to 15 continents, but this will be our fifth continent 16 representative. That's all relevant anyways so 17 we're global. David Perry is from the 18 MacAllister University in Minnesota. He's a 19 Venetian scholar, Mediterranean world scholar, 20 who will focus not only on the urban history 21 connections that we'll also hear from Howard 22 shortly, but also interdisciplinary connections, 23 I believe. Thank you. 24 MR. DAVID PERRY: Thank you. I stand 20 1 at a very privileged place between Anne 2 Gerritsen, who has explicated very eloquently 3 really the broader question that I would also 4 want to emphasize, and I shall not repeat her. 5 But also, before Howard Spodek is going to talk 6 about some of the broader historical processes 7 of urbanization, and I shall not preempt him. 8 Instead, this leads me in a position to think 9 about money. 10 We've talked somewhat in this 11 conference about questions of funding largely in 12 light of how to get the organization to 13 understand what world history does so that 14 they'll give us grants to do world history. 15 I, as a very recent Ph.D., would like 16 to talk about a different source of funding, 17 which is the salary or rather, getting a job. 18 How do you get a job as a world historian? How 19 do you tell departments that don't have a world 20 historian what to look for in world historians? 21 I have, over the last two years, read many job 22 applications claiming to say -- to be looking 23 for world historians and it is quite clear that 24 there is not even anything approaching a 21 1 consensus about what that might mean. If 2 someone is asking for a U.S. historian, then 3 they'll start to narrow it down and tell you 4 what kind of U.S. historian they are looking 5 for, medieval or European. There is nothing 6 even remote like that in world history. 7 Sometimes it's quite clear that a world 8 historian is someone who will teach all of the 9 classes that no one else teaches, a dilemma that 10 I'm sure everyone is familiar with. 11 It could be more than that. It is 12 more than that for many people, and this is 13 another issue that is, as we're thinking about 14 research agendas, another audience that we might 15 think about, the department that has no world 16 historians, one tells you how to hire a good 17 one, tell them how to recognize what a good 18 world historian is and not just -- (inaudible). 19 All of these other people who will never be in 20 this room because we're not interested, but we 21 welcome them, but who might benefit well from 22 the result of this conference. 23 Like many, many of us, I came to world 24 history because my department insisted that I 22 1 teach it. At the same time, largely by 2 accident, I started to teach these courses. I 3 work beyond my work on the dissertation on 4 Venice and the crusades; and at some point in 5 the last few years, I realized that I was, in 6 fact, deeply engaged in transregional and 7 transcultural history. I thought I was a very 8 high bound limited world medievalist, but I 9 discovered that if you stand in Venice, you have 10 to look to the west and you have to start 11 engaging someone -- I called it Marco Polo 12 Syndrome, and I quite like that am going to 13 steal it. 14 There are a number of things I talk 15 about, the role of medieval interfaith contact 16 and violence in global perspective, for example, 17 something that came up earlier, but I've chosen 18 today to focus on how urban history, a field 19 which many well outside of medieval history, are 20 familiar with, of course, conserves locals for 21 world historical studies. Medieval Venice, my 22 focal point stood at the nexus of many trade 23 groups and often engaged in military activity as 24 well as economic activities to maintain its 23 1 position. Venetians also consciously engaged in 2 cultural and economic exchange throughout the -- 3 (inaudible) -- Hebrew and Latin speaking three 4 regions and people throughout medieval in the 5 north or lived in Venice is a hot bed of 6 transregional transcultural contact and 7 influence. But it's not a warm and fuzzy locus. 8 It is a place where Venetians adopted ideas and 9 symbols and invasions from the east and helped 10 to channel those ideas to the rest of Europe. 11 Venetian -- (inaudible) -- felt very 12 uneasy about influx and presence of other people 13 so laws, rituals, artistic production and -- 14 (inaudible) -- shaping of the urban landscape 15 into ethnic -- (inaudible) -- from both -- 16 (inaudible) -- this is how the globalist is 17 transforming the local -- as Anne Gerritsen was 18 suggesting we might think about. One could look 19 at these sorts of issues in many cities, and I 20 provided in my statement I wouldn't revisit 21 them, a list of just a few that came to mind. 22 I'm sure there are many others. The 23 issue here is not to say that the city is 24 something that must be studied in world history. 24 1 But rather, a way that world historians can 2 approach talking to other people about world 3 history, engage with specialists in particular 4 cities and build both interdisciplinary and 5 within just discipline of history itself. How 6 to talk to medieval Venetian historians or 7 modern Venetian historians or any other location 8 you care to choose and bring them into the 9 process of doing world history. 10 Actually, I think I'm just about out 11 of time and I'll stop there. Thank you very 12 much. 13 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Our sixth 14 speaker is Howard Spodek from Temple University. 15 Howard has had a long history of working with 16 both teachers and academics on issues of world 17 history as a citation scholar and as an urban 18 historian. We'll look forward to his remarks, 19 which I'm sure will be helpful. 20 MR. HOWARD SPODEK: Thank you. Thank 21 you for all of the people who made this 22 conference possible. And thanks also for the 23 Journal of Global History, which was put out for 24 all of us. I had an opportunity last night to 25 1 read through some of it, especially the 2 introductory essay. It's a wonderful addition 3 to the field, and I thank you. Yesterday, a lot 4 of the papers dealt with how to break out of 5 national histories into more global histories. 6 What's interesting today is that none of the 7 papers really are concerned with that. All of 8 us have taken a position that says that thematic 9 issues are what were the focus on and the 10 question of how to break free of national 11 histories hasn't really arisen because our point 12 of departure, I think, for every one of the 13 papers really, it's an irrelevant question in 14 the way in which we pose ours. 15 Over the last few days, there have 16 been some very short conversations between Anne, 17 David, and myself talking about how to touch on 18 this issue of where to -- how to deal with 19 urbanization and connection between the global 20 and the local; and I think that's come out in 21 these earlier papers and it will in mine, I 22 think, as well. Urbanist study of urbanization 23 really settle patterns altogether, has a very 24 important place already in world history. And I 26 1 think most of us who teach a kind of world 2 history course or address the issue in whole 3 deal at the largest level with transformation 4 with the four transformations over time from 5 people who live in pneumatic groups to settling 6 down into some kind of settlements into 7 agricultural villages. The second stage into 8 the industrial city of third stage, and 9 nowadays, into the post industrial city in sort 10 of the fourth stage; and it takes us back to the 11 paleolithic for people who are interested in 12 that. It takes us to the modern days for those 13 of us who are interested in modern and sees 14 constant progression in a single kind of 15 institution, the place in which we live and how 16 we use that space, how we create and use that 17 space. 18 For people who are interested in a 19 variety of learning styles, the city is also a 20 wonderful place to sell because it's both a 21 built environment. It's a place you can walk 22 through. It's a place you can visit. It's a 23 physical form and at the same time, it's the 24 home institutions. It's the home of human 27 1 arrangements of the institutional forums that we 2 can also study. For myself, I personally have 3 always felt enormously attractive that there was 4 a physical side to the city. There was also the 5 intellectual cultural institutional side of the 6 city. See that on the largest scale, cities are 7 already very much a part of the way we do world 8 history. 9 I wanted to suggest also that, as two 10 speakers already have, as David and Anne already 11 have, that the city makes a nice location, a 12 good location, and a fruitful location for 13 studies of the local and global and these 14 geographers have given us some tools and some 15 methods to think about cities. Brian Berry, who 16 was professor -- (inaudible) -- graduate school, 17 spoke about cities as systems within systems of 18 cities. And this notion of looking at the 19 system through which to see cities, I think, is 20 enormously fruitful. The system of cities 21 refers to its interrelationship amongst cities 22 or the -- well, David and Anne were both talking 23 about that cities have connections to other 24 places. For return migration it might also be 28 1 an issue, that cities have connections through 2 other cities. In trade, in migration, you 3 cannot really study a city in isolation and, in 4 fact, that's one of the things I think that 5 global people who study the world globally can 6 teach urban historians. I've seen it happen in 7 my own world. My own personal research, most 8 intense research -- (inaudible) -- I've watched 9 over the years as I studied that city how my own 10 interests have seen that city in a larger global 11 connection. 12 If there is a minute, I can talk about 13 that a little more, but I can see the change 14 that occurs because I'm trying to see the city 15 in a more global perspective so sometimes city 16 refers to the interrelationship of cities. I 17 was also writing an essay for one of Michael -- 18 (inaudible) -- three volumes on historiography 19 of world history and I suddenly realized that 20 people have not much interest in the study of 21 cities at any rate. 22 The break that was created by the 23 Russian revolution and the split between the 24 western world and the eastern European, the 29 1 western European and American worlds and eastern 2 European world, most books dealing with 3 urbanization at any rate have not looked at the 4 western side of things without asking how the 5 east shows a difference and how the systems of 6 cities was cut by that and similarly, with the 7 Chinese revolution, parts of the world did not 8 participate in the system of cities. 9 In terms of cities as systems, what 10 goes on inside cities makes a fruitful area for 11 comparison. How is space used? What's CBD 12 like? What's the central business district 13 like, if there is one? How do various groups 14 relate to one another in cities? And this does 15 lead to team efforts and has. I mean, we see it 16 in the most ancient cities with archaeological 17 cities. They don't work individually. They 18 work in large archaeological cities with many 19 kinds of specializations as we move towards more 20 modern cities. We saw the rise of the German 21 school of philosophers and sociologists, the 22 Chicago school in the 1920's, primarily 23 geographers, sociologists, economists, really a 24 very large group of social scientists; and in 30 1 more recent times, the emergence of the 2 so-called Los Angeles School that is looking at 3 the post industrial city. All of these are 4 clearly group efforts at understanding this 5 large phenomenon. 6 And to close, unless there is time for 7 an anecdote, which there isn't, to close, I 8 think there are, in fact, all of these schools 9 and especially the last one, the Los Angeles 10 School, bodes well for the future because it 11 suggests that as there are new schools of 12 urbanization, which that began to flourish in 13 other parts of the field, I think we can look 14 forward to seeing South Asian School, Chinese 15 School, or Latin American School of urbanization 16 that -- (inaudible) -- a different perspective 17 and then enables all of us to link the local and 18 the global together. Thanks. 19 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: At this point, 20 we will ask for questions from you all and we'll 21 wrap up near the end with comments, again, from 22 the panel. So if you could just let me 23 recognize you and we'll get the microphones 24 passed around. Eric? 31 1 MR. ERIC MARTIN: Eric Martin, Lewis 2 Clark State College. Parker had asked me to 3 help pass around the microphones a little bit 4 later and this is the price you pay. A couple 5 of things. One is in addition to his paper that 6 will come up later this afternoon, there has 7 been a lot of really great references -- 8 (inaudible) -- so I think it helps to kind of 9 sort those out as bibliography to the 10 conference. It will be useful. Just a couple 11 of things tying the panel together. 12 Connecting the local and global, just 13 to remind those folks who were at the last 14 conference, the World History ten years ago -- 15 (inaudible) -- out of Salem State College really 16 does great work on this, but she's essentially 17 taken the electricity point out of Salem and 18 traced where that coal has come from and that 19 coal came from the largest open face coal mine 20 in the world in Columbia, and so she wound up 21 over in Columbia and -- (inaudible) -- border, 22 connected into issues of indigenous migration 23 within Columbia and forced labor, all kinds of 24 really interesting stuff, to where she's used 32 1 this as a way to make not only the students at 2 Salem State but also the communities sort of 3 understand these connections just by flicking on 4 the light switch, and so that's an interesting 5 thing. The tensions between teaching needs and 6 research driven questions, I want to comment on 7 that for just a minute. 8 Our research agenda should be driven 9 by research questions; but I don't know if it's 10 good enough to focus on a particular question 11 just because we think it's interesting or 12 because no one else has addressed it in just the 13 way we think it ought to be addressed. If the 14 mission is to make our work of practical value 15 to society as a whole and to function as public 16 intellectuals, as Peter Gran and others have 17 brought up, I think that we have to connect in 18 teaching in the research questions. That's one 19 of the things I really liked about Peter's 20 comments. 21 The idea that here to refine syllabus 22 for African -- (inaudible) -- to come up with 23 new research, to incorporate the way we teach 24 with new ideas. I remember at the same 33 1 conference, the World History in the last ten 2 years, one of the things that Jerry Bentley had 3 brought up that the field really needs 4 provision world history courses. He really saw 5 that as being something that would really help 6 to refine research. The upper division 7 undergraduate research courses now -- just one 8 more comment. Maybe probably on David's 9 comments about the world history job market and 10 that kind of -- I kind of want to elaborate just 11 a little bit. 12 One of the dilemmas I see is that, 13 well, of course, research in some ways has 14 always been for the big research institutions. 15 Teaching colleges at times -- (inaudible) -- and 16 that's that; but the thing that's interesting, 17 at least sort of what I see, is for those 18 specializing in world history as a research 19 field. The people that seem to be most 20 interested in hearing in teaching colleges so 21 the trick becomes trying to figure out how to 22 use the classroom to generate publication and 23 research. In other words, you wind up in places 24 without a lot of support for research; and so in 34 1 addition to figuring out how to, you know, make 2 the networks between big research institutions, 3 how to include teaching institutions, 4 financially I think is an important part of the 5 mission, and now I'll pass around the 6 microphone. 7 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Leslie Witz. 8 MR. LESLIE WITZ: Leslie Witz, history 9 department, University of the Western Cape. I 10 have sort of just some troubling questions, 11 actually. And they are all very tentative and 12 I'm wondering -- and I haven't gotten answers 13 and it troubles me and that also dichotomies 14 that are being used in local, global, modern, 15 premodern. Why are we using them and what are 16 the meanings, and do they not almost 17 dehistoricize things because once you say 18 something is local, it takes a space prior 19 before the global, it seems like, so there is 20 almost this pre -- this local specs. What is 21 this local specs? What is the premodern? It 22 also emphasizes the moment of -- (inaudible) -- 23 as the cutting off point. When something in her 24 paper -- hers was about mobility and those sorts 35 1 of things. So I'm wondering, what other spacial 2 sort of configurations that one is to put up 3 when you're using the terms local and global? 4 Just to here. 5 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Howard Spodek. 6 MR. HOWARD SPODEK: I can't speak for 7 everyone else, but I didn't connect the 8 dichotomy. I attended the search for 9 continuities. It's not that the local is 10 separate from the global, but I think the 11 question is, how do they connect? And 12 similarly, the premodernly point of, is what's 13 the divisions, although historians love to 14 debate such things, but also what are the 15 continuities? It was not an attempt to make 16 your term dichotomy. It was an attempt to see 17 how they linked together. 18 MR. LESLIE WITZ: But then I use them. 19 MR. HOWARD SPODEK: Let me give an 20 example. I want to give this example because of 21 my shock. There have been some very terrible 22 violent -- (inaudible) -- I study between Hindus 23 and Muslim people. I will call it the program 24 of Hindus Primarily, as far as I can tell, for 36 1 lectual reasons. I went to a book shop in the 2 city, the biggest -- (inaudible) -- language 3 book shop in the city and I said, everyone tells 4 me that the literature in English and the 5 literature in New -- (inaudible) -- are quite 6 different in covering this event. What would 7 you recommend that I read written in -- 8 (inaudible) -- on this issue? And the fellow, 9 really a clerk behind the counter or desk came 10 out with two books on something on terrorism. 11 Now, I would not personally have said 12 that the key cause of this program was global 13 terrorism; but some people, similar to the 14 attack on Iraq that the United States waged, 15 someone, for whatever reason, has seen an 16 appropriate to link the local to the global 17 issue of terrorism. I think it was a mistake in 18 connection. But people are constantly, normal 19 people, not historians, people are constantly 20 trying to see what's the connection between the 21 local and the global; and it's very important 22 for us, for everyone, to analyze carefully where 23 there are connections, where there aren't 24 connections. So the issue is there, but it's 37 1 not dichotomist. The question is, what is the 2 linkage and how does one see the linkage? 3 Similarly, how do you explain the present in 4 terms of the past or recent past, in terms of 5 the more distant past? These are questions of 6 continuities, as well as discontinuities. 7 MS. MARILYN LAKE: If I could also just 8 say something in terms of that. I think most of 9 us have thought about the local and global, 10 insofar as using those terms as not the local is 11 prior but rather, that they mutually are 12 informative. They are mutually information and 13 that in a way is really the point. There is no 14 local prior, except insofar as this scene which 15 you might also refer to as the specific or 16 particular or something comes into formation 17 through an engagement. What we also call the 18 term global there. This might be problematic 19 but nevertheless, I think it's that mutual 20 formation that we had in mind. 21 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: I have been 22 writing down names of people and I know that 23 there are many people who want to speak who 24 spoke a lot yesterday as well, which is 38 1 wonderful, but would also love to encourage 2 other people who haven't spoken yet to speak up. 3 Jack? Please introduce yourself. 4 MR. JACK MILLS: I'm Jack Mills, 5 University of California. To make Anne 6 Gerritsen's local, global, and then local again 7 in Boston and New York, if you visit any 18th 8 Century house on the East Coast of the US, ask, 9 do you have any export porcelain? They always 10 do, in my experience. Out on the North Shore, 11 in Peabody, the Essex Museum in Salem has a 12 stunning collection of stuff from all of the 13 intercontinental trades. Early 19th Century 14 that met in New York has a big punch bowl and I 15 think it's a service in addition to the punch 16 bowl that was custom-made in -- (inaudible) -- 17 for a New York Grandy who was a member of 18 Washington's order of the Cincinnati and has a 19 perfect production on the outside of the punch 20 bowl of the diploma of Cincinnati. Probably 21 done by somebody in -- (inaudible) -- and I 22 think the question of how the heck they did all 23 this stuff so accurately in -- (inaudible) -- 24 must be part of Anne's localization. 39 1 Finally, David, medievalist, loves -- 2 (inaudible) -- questions. Is it correct that 3 Venice is the -- (inaudible) -- for the word 4 get-go? 5 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: David 6 Lindenfeld. 7 MR. DAVID LINDENFELD: David 8 Lindenfeld, Louisiana State University. This is 9 really just a follow-up comment to what's been 10 said in the last few; but just to this, I wonder 11 if you've thought about just looking at this 12 question in terms of the different vectors and 13 the different directions in which change might 14 take. In other words, the question, how does 15 the global transform the local implies a one-way 16 street, and there are two other things that come 17 to mind there. One is how local modifies the 18 global, as Jack's last example indicates. 19 A local usage then becomes 20 universalized but also, some people have raised 21 the question, how does the local transform the 22 global and how do actions in far off places 23 from -- (inaudible) -- influence that? I'm 24 thinking of the world of -- (inaudible) -- they 40 1 make this point in Peter Vandabeer on imperial 2 encounters with India, those, too. Sometimes I 3 think that that tends to be a little bit 4 politically correct, wishful thinking. I'm not 5 quite so sure that they -- (inaudible) -- quite 6 as strong as they would like to see, but I think 7 it's definitely worth thinking about. 8 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Thank you. I 9 would add to that list, Donald Wright's book, 10 "African: Small Place in World History," which 11 is also a great example of local influence in 12 global. Peter Gran. 13 MR. PETER GRAN: Thank you very much. 14 I must say I myself somewhat am interested in 15 the themes that I've presented, but I have -- 16 (inaudible) -- all kinds of different history 17 and specifically world history. So in thinking 18 about the identity of world history as a field 19 to hold its own in history departments, I'm 20 wondering if your calculation was that these 21 schematics would stand for the field and would 22 substitute for an expectation in our history 23 departments that some kind of narrative of 24 discussion of power as one finds great powers 41 1 and resistance of great powers, if all of this 2 is -- (inaudible). In other words, 3 strategically, as well as scientifically, can 4 one sort of take group schematics and sort of 5 say that they represent something? Particularly 6 if we don't claim ownership of these themes, nor 7 do we necessarily have the last word. 8 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: David Northrop, 9 Boston College. 10 MR. DAVID NORTHROP: David Northrop, 11 Boston College. I was struck by the themes that 12 probably came together most clearly in Professor 13 Adebayo's presentation, which stressed one of 14 the great continuities that world history needs, 15 is always struggling with, and that is the 16 continuity of the past and the present. And 17 migration is a great illustration, I think, of 18 the way in which taking a very presence position 19 actually makes us understand some of the 20 migration history better. 21 It is customary to think of the great 22 migrations of the 19th and early 20th Centuries 23 as the sort of peak and essentially, they were 24 the biggest migration that have been seen until 42 1 then, but the World War is, of course, simply 2 interrupted. What seems to have been a 3 continuing and accelerating trend so that we're 4 now in the middle of a much greater migration of 5 people around the world; and when we have enough 6 years to compare with that particular stretch, 7 I'm sure it's going to be bigger, perhaps, by a 8 couple of orders of magnitude. And that, I 9 think, raises questions of all sorts, such as 10 he, himself, has been addressing. 11 But I think in particular, the 12 overlapping migration that in many cases people 13 from Africa, for example, are crossing the 14 Atlantic to the Americas and particularly to 15 North America, and encountering, of course, 16 older African populations. And the same can be 17 said for all sorts of other migrating routes and 18 this raises a lot of, I think, opportunities to 19 talk about the way in which the past and the 20 present are quite literally intersecting in the 21 world around us and raise questions of how we 22 are to understand these larger phenomenon. 23 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Adam McKeown. 24 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: Adam McKeown, 43 1 Columbia University. I'm also going to express 2 a bit of discomfort with the local global. It 3 seems to think -- it sets up even as I 4 understand all of the kinds of interactive 5 spectrum, it sets up a privileges, I think, 6 geographical proximity as the ultimate 7 structure. We have localities that are 8 ultimately subsumed under kind of -- 9 (inaudible) -- hierarchy of space. 10 When I think of other ways to imagine 11 local and global, you might think the 12 parochialists or the depth of social relations. 13 You can look at enormously -- (inaudible) -- and 14 in many ways, they are social geographies. 15 Their view of the world, their social languages 16 are extremely parochial, even though they are 17 not geographically local in many senses. In 18 other words, you may have some of the -- 19 (inaudible) -- trans this, trans that, people 20 there and yet, they never moved anywhere in 21 their lives. They've never been out of this 22 particular city, and the local and global, 23 inasmuch as I'm sure you don't want it to imply 24 this, but I think it's hard to make it not imply 44 1 this -- (inaudible) -- geography but I found a 2 bit more pointing in the different directions 3 the idea of urban system and urban system 4 linkage of cities, which doesn't necessarily 5 mean an entirely global -- (inaudible) -- but a 6 particular kind of pathway that does move beyond 7 regions. We talked about, I think, before 8 cities as nodes, and I'm hopefully, perhaps, in 9 the next session, we have the session of 10 networks, that they might even, as they present, 11 they might present what they think of the local 12 and global kind of way -- (inaudible) -- and how 13 they think networks may or may not work in 14 that -- (inaudible). 15 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: George Dehner. 16 MR. GEORGE DEHNER: George Dehner, 17 D E H N E R. It's not a really fair question to 18 ask this panel in particular because I am 19 thinking about this. I see a little bit of 20 oversight that we haven't been very clear about, 21 talking about the resources, research resources 22 of, aside from funding opportunities that we can 23 use as world historians and sort of appropriate 24 for what we wanted to do in terms of analysis. 45 1 It struck me as fairly clear here, and was sort 2 of highlighted by what Peter was saying, that 3 there is ownership of resources and if world 4 historians are going to take out a claim to 5 these resources, how do we say what we do in 6 these archives is different, is suitable for our 7 work and does not necessarily contradict your 8 work in other -- (inaudible) -- but here's a way 9 that we approach these resources and what these 10 resources are. Because I'm as guilty as 11 anybody. We haven't really discussed, I don't 12 think, too much the way of documents and 13 reorganizations we can utilize. 14 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Would our panel 15 like to respond to any of the comments thus far? 16 David, go ahead. 17 MR. DAVID PERRY: David Perry. My 18 question is, I think these criticisms are quite 19 fair and it's not actually a language that I've 20 used, that I use in my statement or that I 21 generally use. My question is, how you move 22 from a beginning of a somewhat limited research 23 topic and think about it as a world historical 24 topic and to think about how it might be 46 1 broadened. I can go on forever really about how 2 wonderful Venice is and how you should all study 3 it, but that's not remotely the point. When I 4 think about the history of Venice, I think more 5 about issues of identity -- (inaudible) -- of 6 itself and notions of the other, which is yet 7 another dichotomy and, perhaps, is the dichotomy 8 that historians should explode, but it also 9 exists in my sources and it exists in the people 10 that I'm studying, that the people have a 11 conception of who they are and it's a changing 12 conception over time. 13 In fact, my dissertation focuses on a 14 particular moment when Venice's relationship to 15 the eastern Mediterranean world transforms into 16 one with very happily taking both things, 17 material objects and ideas from the east and 18 saying these are eastern ideas and we're using 19 them to taking material objects and things from 20 the ideas from the east and saying these ideas 21 have always been Venetian. This relic has 22 always been Venetian and that's a fairly 23 profound shift in the relationship of the node 24 with the network, which is also a phrase I 47 1 haven't used before but one that I like. So 2 there are these dichotomies in the things that I 3 study in terms of how the people I study see the 4 world, and I suspect that if we look at some of 5 these other sites, that there would be people 6 who see the local and the global as two very 7 different things; and if historians are to 8 explode these dichotomies, that's fine; but for 9 me, the sources, at least, is where I begin in 10 terms of looking at their view of the world. 11 MS. ANNE GERRITSEN: Anne Gerritsen. 12 I find these thoughts extremely interesting and 13 stimulating. I like the kind of discomforts 14 that you pose, Leslie, with regard to premodern 15 and modern and local and global, and I think I 16 agree with Howard when he said these are 17 continuities and ongoing interactions that we 18 want to look at, rather than dichotomies and 19 separations. But I completely agree with what 20 you were just saying, David, because the local, 21 as Adam was just saying, is a kind of imagined 22 place in people's minds in very different ways 23 and an imagination that exists in very different 24 constituencies, not necessarily locally based, 48 1 particularly when the idea of -- (inaudible) -- 2 migration, movement, movement of objects. 3 People imagine some kind of identity associated 4 with these objects in very different ways, and I 5 think those are interesting sites of 6 exploration. But there is also something about 7 trying to create something that is local in the 8 source that I see, which tries quite consciously 9 to set it aside from this wider global 10 interaction; and I think that is also an 11 interesting point to explore and to look at. 12 And I think it's important, 13 particularly in the Chinese case, because the 14 now, of course, discarded idea of a closed-off 15 China and a China that doesn't engage with the 16 wider world or tries to set itself off, as 17 Professor Zhang was also talking to us about, 18 may well have been discarded by, perhaps, some 19 of us here or certain people who work on this in 20 China but still reside very much out there among 21 our colleagues and in the works that our 22 students read and in the general discussions 23 about China's place in the wider world. So I do 24 think in that sense it's crucial that we do 49 1 explore the local and show the local to be a 2 global place, to look particularly at the kind 3 of ways in which those encounter each other and 4 negotiate and interact with each other. So I'm 5 not trying to simplify it into something that's 6 dichotomy, but I'm trying to raise it as a 7 scientific exploration. 8 MR. HOWARD SPODEK: Unless there is 9 somebody who wants this. I wanted to address 10 three other comments that were made. The first 11 group having to do with the local influencing 12 the global. David began to talk about nodes. 13 There is a theory way of looking at things in 14 urban -- (inaudible) -- primarily but elsewhere 15 as well of nodes and networks similar to the 16 systems of cities that there are nodes and there 17 are networks and information and ideas and goods 18 travel along these and the node is very 19 important. 20 One of the questions that I ask myself 21 in terms of nodes and networks and the influence 22 of the local on the global is, why did Gandhi 23 decide to settle in -- (inaudible) -- when he 24 returned from South Africa to India. He gives 50 1 his own reasons in his autobiography. I think 2 one of the reasons they didn't particularly cite 3 it -- the question is, why didn't he settle in 4 the village? This is a man who is an exponent 5 of India. He settled in what is now the seventh 6 largest city in Indian, then India, Pakistan 7 together. (Inaudible) -- the largest city in 8 the country with a very, very large textile 9 industry. And, again, he's interested in 10 something, hand weaving, but he says it's in a 11 city with an enormous textile industry. 12 I think one of the reasons is because 13 he understood the importance of communication, 14 which he certainly did. He had his own printing 15 presses and the like in South Africa as well. 16 The local can influence the global but the news 17 has to spread. The news has to get out and 18 somehow or other, whatever happens at the local 19 level, it has to be transmitted, and that's why 20 I think that people like -- (inaudible) -- are 21 writing about contemporary cities, cites three 22 cities: New London, New York, and Tokyo as keys 23 to the development of the world network. Now, 24 she may be wrong about that, about which 51 1 particular cities, but there are nodes and 2 networks and the news has to spread. So I think 3 that that's an important consideration. Even 4 the local influencing global, you have to hear 5 about it. 6 The second question raised by Peter 7 Gran, I have two different -- (inaudible) -- on 8 I think from the way in which he presented this. 9 And one has come up over the last -- yesterday 10 and today. Do we intend to formulate ourselves 11 as a project or as an association of approaches 12 to large scale history? If one is looking at a 13 project, then you say this is in and this is 14 out. I don't see it that way. I see us as an 15 association of people who want to see large -- 16 some connection, large -- (inaudible) -- 17 comparison, global views, but open to a variety 18 of approaches and interests. 19 The second is, that resistance is one 20 way of structuring world history or any kind of 21 history. The interest in power gone and 22 resistance is a critical issue in any kind of 23 history, but it's not the only issue; and there 24 are lots of other issues that people are 52 1 interested in. History, science and history of 2 sociology, urbanization. There are a whole 3 variety of issues that people also look at, and 4 I would say that resistance is one very 5 important way of looking but not only one. I 6 would also add that looking at urbanization, for 7 example, gives a lot of scope for people who 8 want to look at issues of dominance and 9 resistance, urban studies, urban history. 10 Anyone who studies cities is immediately 11 confronted with issues of who seems to have 12 charge here. Even the New York cultural cities 13 of cities. You know, who dominates this 14 particular part in a city. 15 So I see no conflict between studies 16 of resistance and studies of urbanization, but 17 neither do I see one taking precedence over the 18 other. I think they are both very valid ways of 19 looking at issues. 20 And finally, speaking to Adam's view, 21 yes, I do think we're looking at network 22 analysis; and it is networks that we're looking 23 at. It isn't geographical proximity when we 24 talk about urban systems. It is the network and 53 1 the nodes and the networks that we're looking at 2 or at least I'm looking at; and I think I see 3 some nods here. I think other people as well. 4 MS. MARILYN LAKE: Can I just say 5 something? I just want to address the issue of 6 research and teaching and -- (inaudible) -- 7 income. I think, of course, our research shapes 8 teaching syllabi all of the time. So that what 9 is on the syllabus or ways of conceptualizing 10 world history or transnational history or 11 whatever is shaped continuously by the new 12 research that people do, and I just want to give 13 an example of this, how that's been taught into 14 new teaching positions. 15 We at LaTrobe University have just 16 advertised three new lectureships -- 17 (inaudible) -- positions and they were 18 advertised in fields deliberately broad 19 conceptually in approach. Described sort of in 20 general terms as transnational, post learning, 21 environmental history. And because they were so 22 broad, we have wonderful applications from all 23 over the world. We were inundated with 24 fantastic applications from numerous countries, 54 1 about 140 very, very good applications we're 2 currently in the process of looking at right 3 now, and so I think that's a really good example 4 of the way that new research interests actually 5 shape new teaching fields and open up new sorts 6 of jobs. Not necessarily describing in terms of 7 the project of world history but nevertheless, 8 they are the sorts of positions that a lot of 9 people here would be within that sort of frame. 10 MR. ADAPA SATYANARAYANA: I'm Adapa. 11 I'm trying to understand the relationship 12 between the local and the global in terms of the 13 mobility of the people; and also, the cultural 14 interactions that have arisen as part of this 15 movement. For instance, when I look at the 16 migration of the -- (inaudible) -- labor from 17 South India to Southwest Asia and to -- 18 (inaudible) -- and to South Africa, these people 19 came back. They came back with new ideas 20 because the way they interacted with the local, 21 with the whole society. 22 For instance, the -- (inaudible) -- 23 communities which migrated to -- (inaudible) -- 24 which was a different country, so the fact that 55 1 they are in a situation where they were not 2 discriminated, they can go to the school in -- 3 (inaudible). As an example of which some of 4 these migrants got -- (inaudible). Now, having 5 lived in Bama for a while and when they came 6 back to the native locality, they began to take 7 part in new social cultural movements. 8 Now, he just mentioned Gandhi. Gandhi 9 was triggered for having jumped in the cause of 10 the -- (inaudible). In 1934, he launched this, 11 what they call the up movement of the -- 12 (inaudible) -- but long before Gandhi was on the 13 scene, in 1917, in South India or even earlier, 14 in South India, the -- (inaudible) -- 15 communities were gone abroad, had started their 16 own self-mobilization programs and they started 17 new education institutions. They began to wear 18 new clothes or clean clothes. Their houses were 19 cleanly kept because they see -- (inaudible). 20 It has, in fact, shaped the consciousness and 21 also shaped the identity. So that this 22 so-called written migrants had been the 23 champions of this -- (inaudible) -- movement. 24 So they had been very articulate in resisting 56 1 cost operation, dominant, and so on. So -- 2 (inaudible) -- the mobility, in fact, shapes the 3 nature of the locality also. So in that way, we 4 can see the -- (inaudible) -- between the local 5 and the global. 6 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Thank you. 7 There are several people here that would like to 8 speak. We'll start with Pat. 9 MR. PATRICK MANNING: I'm Pat Manning. 10 On the pairing of local, global, modern, and 11 premodern, Marilyn Lake made a sworn 12 observation. I think one can think of local and 13 global as mutually informative, but I don't know 14 how far we'll get of thinking about modern and 15 premodern as mutually informative, except, of 16 course, at the level of historiography where, 17 indeed, they are mutually informative; but I 18 want to address this question and to suggest 19 that difference between modern and premodern is 20 one statement that is before us, this issue; and 21 they are in the location of the paleolithic, is 22 another statement of this issue. Within the 23 community of world historians, of course here is 24 a great deal of concentration in modern times, 57 1 but that merely mirrors the historical 2 profession as a whole. Indeed, world historians 3 are much more evenly -- (inaudible) -- across 4 time in their efforts as historians generally; 5 and each, I think, national group think that at 6 this time has post extreme concentration on the 7 19th and 20th Centuries really don't know who is 8 ahead in this narrowing of history that's taking 9 place. So that's one but the fundamental 10 question, and I hope we can make some progress 11 and deciding where we stand, is whether one 12 assumes that the history of the modern period or 13 the history of the post agricultural period is 14 fundamentally different from the prior period. 15 And so we have a force group of 16 historians of movement of migration. All of you 17 working in modern or almost modern period. And 18 I would put that question to you as whether the 19 dynamics that you see are conditioned to what 20 degree they are conditioned by the immediate 21 social situation and to what degree they are 22 conditioned by fundamental human motivations, 23 and I would argue for the case of migration that 24 there is a much larger amount of migratory 58 1 behavior and movement of young adult people off 2 into new situations, that a great deal of that 3 is absolutely transhistorical. And it doesn't 4 mean that everyone has to work on this great 5 long period, but it does mean that in 6 re-evaluating your own analysis of this 7 situation, you're looking for ways to pose a 8 question, how much of this is socially 9 conditioned by immediate circumstances and how 10 much of it is just what humans do? I should 11 stop at that point. 12 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Tom? 13 MR. TOM SANDERS: Tom Sanders, Sable 14 Academy. This is not a substantive comment on 15 the very interesting papers but since the issue 16 of jobs has been raised, we have -- and since I 17 was an academic displaced person myself for a 18 long time, we are advertising for two positions. 19 (Inaudible) -- assistant professor in South Asia 20 and in East Asia. And when I left to come here, 21 we had about nine applications and what concerns 22 me is that somehow the community might not 23 understand this to be an AUP civilian dominated 24 department. And so if you know people out there 59 1 who are looking for jobs in related fields, 2 we'll be interviewing in Atlanta -- 3 (inaudible). Let people know about this. We 4 have over 40 department members. Well over half 5 of us are civilians and we're kind of a 6 collective memory of the department. We're not 7 dominated by the military in that sense. So 8 there are very good positions that people may 9 not know about. 10 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Okay. We have 11 several people who would like to speak at this 12 point. Annette, who's next. 13 MS. ANNETTE HANSEN: I'm Annette Hansen 14 from the University of Aarhus. I just had a 15 comment to Adapa or rather, something for us to 16 consider, I think, also in this context of world 17 history for our agenda, and that is the example 18 of Gandhi as opposed to, as I'm seeing it, a 19 movement that was already in existence; and I 20 see that as a point that we could take up in 21 terms of some of the discussions yesterday of 22 translating or rather, becoming intelligible as 23 a part of world history; that as world 24 historians, to include more of the other voices 60 1 or however we want to define it, to find out 2 that maybe world history is not just the amount 3 of people we already know, so to speak, but then 4 how do we translate the histories of, for 5 example, this movement of untouchables or return 6 migration into something that's intelligible as 7 part of a world history narrative. 8 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: In the back, in 9 the striped shirt. Please identify yourself. 10 MR. AIMS McGUINNESS: I'm James 11 McGuinness in Milwaukee. I was really 12 fascinated by Marilyn Lake's paper in that it 13 raised a question that has arisen before, which 14 is how to do the history of difference and how 15 do we remain and think critically about the 16 categories of spacial and temporal categories 17 that we bring into analysis of the past. And I 18 was very struck. You mentioned in her paper the 19 importance of the 1850s and 1855 in particular 20 in Australia for the rise of legislation with 21 respect to immigration. 22 As you alluded, the 1850s are also in 23 the very important moment, important moment in 24 the United States, in California in particular, 61 1 with immigration research in the 1850s and 2 interestingly, 1855 and 1856 are also very 3 important moments for the merchants of notions 4 of -- (inaudible) -- and solidarity in Latin 5 America. I think that there is a connection 6 here that would be worth exploring. Latin 7 persons themselves have a long-standing debate 8 about what the origins of Latina are. But 9 currently, there is an emerging consensus that 10 the second half of the 1850s is the particularly 11 important moment at which people, Spanish 12 speaking people in the Americas begin to 13 reimagine themselves as being part of the 14 United -- (inaudible) -- that is based on the 15 racial identification. 16 You talk about there are a number of 17 connections but one is, there is an explicit 18 engagement of theory with Anglo-Saxon 19 superiority. This is an engagement that takes 20 place in the gold fields of California. It also 21 takes place in port cities and Panama, among 22 other places. But it's interesting. Rather 23 than theorists of -- (inaudible). Rather than 24 speaking to human rights of mobility and the 62 1 notion of a Latin -- (inaudible) -- is that in 2 some ways, I think, a more defensive movement in 3 which -- (inaudible) -- but privileges, 4 particularly kind of Latin manhood that's just 5 opposed to an Anglo-Saxon manhood. The larger 6 point, I guess, so it's fascinating to me to 7 think about how these things could be related. 8 Another thing that relates are 9 steamships, not only because steamships enable 10 this immigration, but also because steamships in 11 the case of what becomes Latin America enable 12 the rise of Spanish language (inaudible) -- I 13 think the circulation of newspapers is something 14 that plays an important role in the emergence of 15 a -- (inaudible) -- political project. I think 16 the larger abstract point I wanted to make is 17 that I think your paper really emphasizes in 18 high line the importance of being critically 19 about -- (inaudible). There are endless studies 20 on comparing race in Latin America with race in 21 the United States. And rarely, almost never, do 22 these studies sit back and think about how did 23 the category of America Latina, Latin America 24 itself emerge out of the debates over race. 63 1 These are not natural categories. (Inaudible). 2 So I would just like to thank you for reminding 3 us of that. 4 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: David Kalivas 5 and then Anne Chao and then Kate. 6 MR. DAVID KALIVAS: I'll pass. 7 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Anne Chao. 8 MS. ANNE CHAO: I'm Anne Chao. I sort 9 of have a question about the division of time 10 between modern, premodern, traditional, mainly 11 out of my own ignorance. When I first entered 12 the field and have asked how do we divide 13 China's history from premodern to modern and 14 then contemporary, I think premodern is 15 something before 1850. Modern is 1850 to 1949 16 and now it's contemporary. 17 My question is, what happens after 18 2001? And I'm wondering, world history, you're 19 going across the world, all of these different 20 special areas of specialties. Do we have a 21 consensus of what is modern world history, what 22 is premodern, what is traditional, contemporary? 23 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Kate Kimball. 24 MS. KATHLEEN KIMBALL: Well, I happen 64 1 to follow you because sometimes when I'm 2 listening to you, I think about what happens in 3 our history, and there are the same arguments 4 about labels. So whether you're thinking of 5 the -- (inaudible) -- native space and 6 considering local and global or -- 7 (inaudible) -- it becomes problematic when you 8 moved beyond just different days. 9 To speak of Japanese art history and 10 talk of it as medieval Japanese art history, 11 when there is nothing medieval about it, it's 12 only something medieval because -- 13 (inaudible). That's what's happening in the US 14 at that time so it becomes troublesome when you 15 move back and forth. 16 In Latin America, you have early -- 17 (inaudible). You can't tell anything about 18 comparing costs and see purely the dates. So 19 from my own way of navigating your linguistic 20 efforts, I simply assign dates and that gets me 21 out of at least part of the problem. I would 22 like to say, I see a connection between what 23 Adapa does and what the rest of the panel is 24 doing; and that's because of a kind of -- 65 1 (inaudible). It's not just the ceramics and the 2 porcelain and the -- (inaudible) -- that are 3 happening. It's also a broom in the brush 4 making villages that's nearby where they have to 5 make the brushes -- (inaudible). When something 6 happens in local space, it's like a pebble in a 7 pond. Nearby communities are also impacted. 8 Our history also suffers from a presentism where 9 the more you approach the moment that we're 10 in -- (inaudible) -- the more people are 11 interested in what's going on so that there is a 12 loss of connection to the paleolithic. 13 It does cause me to wonder why someone 14 would say what a world historian says looking at 15 airport -- (inaudible) -- compared to the 16 Internet 500 years from now. What happened to 17 all of those medieval churches? Oh, I see. 18 Religion became less important. Well, we became 19 more important so they made little miniature 20 versions, which is why you see chapels in 21 airports. 22 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Hans? 23 MR. HANS-HEINRICH NOLTE: I'm 24 Hans-Heinrich Nolte from Canada. I want to say 66 1 also the question of premodern and modern is 2 about much information. This becomes very clear 3 from the -- (inaudible) -- because our term 4 "modern" originated in the -- (inaudible) -- in 5 the late 17th Century France and then some 6 people said, "well, this is new, what we're 7 doing here." And other people said, "no. We 8 are still in Renaissance," meaning reviving 9 something so it's old, what we're doing, and so 10 mutually they are redefining themselves neither 11 as something now or as something old. And so 12 the term in itself came to life by that mutual 13 formation. 14 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Adam? 15 MR. ADAM McKEOWN: The recent comments, 16 I don't think we discussed so much so far as 17 how you think a change -- how do you think of 18 change of world historicalism and what 19 difference does it make? One of the reasons 20 national history has been so powerful is because 21 they have broad synthetic narratives of how the 22 nation developed and changed and whether you 23 agree with that narrative or not. It provides 24 this framework from watching, making your local 67 1 studies significant. You argue against it. You 2 agree with it. And in many ways, the discussion 3 about periodization and modern, premodern, this 4 is really a discussion about what this world 5 historical change means. What difference does 6 it bring to us? We can see what change of 7 global level? In the past, suggesting that 8 migration tendencies have been the same 9 throughout time. 10 I want to suggest that we look at 11 patterns of migration. There has been a 12 significant change since the early 19th Century. 13 We see it at a global scale, which you may not 14 see when you make decisions and household 15 strategies and these types of things; but when 16 you look at the directions, the scale of 17 movement, the larger patterns, the way it's 18 organized and controlled, I think that really is 19 a big difference. And anyway, this is happening 20 globally. 21 One of the things I sort of, modern, 22 premodern, divide often is, when you talk 23 through migration again, there is within the 24 Atlantic -- (inaudible) -- the idea that the 68 1 Atlantic migration dislocation, mobility, all 2 this kind of stuff, it's all about -- 3 (inaudible). What you didn't have in Asia which 4 was so premodern because they were bound to the 5 land and traditional blah, blah, blah, but 6 actually, if you look at the migration patterns 7 around the world, it happened with an enormous 8 simultaneous -- (inaudible). Migration explodes 9 in the Atlantic at the same time it explodes in 10 Asia. So when you can still maintain, I think, 11 a periodization, this is my key. But phrases 12 like -- (inaudible) -- don't really capture at 13 other kinds of baggage, other than 14 periodization. 15 But thinking about the final 16 statement, at some level, I think imagining what 17 world historical change means, what it brings to 18 us, it's important. 19 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Zhang Weiwei. 20 MR. ZHANG WEIWEI: I'm Zhang Weiwei 21 from Nankai University. At the time I try to 22 get rid of the problem, because in my case, I 23 have to spend about half an hour between modern 24 and early modern times and there was the Chinese 69 1 world -- (inaudible). That's what troubles us. 2 And also in China, there is a difference between 3 them. I just use from 19th Century -- 4 (inaudible). I don't know how to deal with 5 those, the world history, because of the 6 way -- (inaudible). India has the same like 7 China. (Inaudible). But I also wonder 8 sometimes, maybe 500 years later, how they -- 9 (inaudible). That's what troubles us. Thank 10 you. 11 MS. DEBORAH JOHNSTON: Our last comment 12 from the floor would be